Neon Canyon

[Mountaineer]

Like I said--with water levels at where you encountered them, now imagine the bottom is unreachable.

Exactly. Huge problem. Any tricks to escape? Three people, with two holding their breath? Grappling hook?

[Slot Machine]

Exactly. Huge problem. Any tricks to escape? Three people, with two holding their breath? Grappling hook?

From what I saw, it would be a very rare and unfortunate circumstance to encounter the 'perfect storm' in this pothole. No log, no sand in the bottom, water too deep to work effectively, but too shallow to swim across... 1 in a thousand shot perhaps?

I would go with 3 people, 2 holding breath, all over 6 feet tall. (our strategy, glad we didn't have to use it)

[dude9478]

Exactly. Huge problem. Any tricks to escape? Three people, with two holding their breath? Grappling hook?

From what I've been told(I haven't been in Neon when that pothole is keeper) you can always go back up canyon, assuming you didn't pull your rope into the pothole, upclimb the 2 downclimbs before that pothole and escape in the open area of the canyon.

[AJ]

From what I saw, it would be a very rare and unfortunate circumstance to encounter the 'perfect storm' in this pothole. No log, no sand in the bottom, water too deep to work effectively, but too shallow to swim across... 1 in a thousand shot perhaps?

I would go with 3 people, 2 holding breath, all over 6 feet tall. (our strategy, glad we didn't have to use it)

Maybe right now, sure, 1 in 1000. However, I would not have that attitude in general. I've been in that pothole before when it was as OldNo7 describes it. Where the water level was the same as in your picture, but I couldn't dive down deep enough to even touch the bottom, so forget about getting someone on your shoulders while you are under the surface. (I've also done that pothole, where we could do just that. Have someone under water, and someone else stand on their shoulders.) In fact, the first thing that came to my mind, when I saw your photo, was MAN, the pothole is in WAY easy mode right now.

However, I strongly caution everyone to NOT underestimate the problem this COULD pose in the future. Dude9478 is correct; you should be able to reverse and get out from there, just don't pull the rope.

Mountaineer, do some searching here, and on the canyons Yahoo group, and you will see all kinds of interesting ideas (pvc ladder you can assemble, etc). We used several packs lashed together with drybags fully inflated to make a raft. Several people try to stabilize the raft as much as possible, and the lightest person tries to stand on the raft and jump up onto the lip. As others have mentioned, the downcanyon side is sloping down towards the pothole, and is sandy; so it's not as easy as it looks on TV.

Take care,
A.J.

[oldno7]

Exactly. Huge problem. Any tricks to escape? Three people, with two holding their breath? Grappling hook?

Slot machine is rather new to this sport, he's either overestimating his abilities or underestimating an obstacle or--he's the most talented canyoneer known.(canyonman?)

Packraft is doable, as is retreat if necessary, as long as you don't pull your rope into the pothole.

Now for fun, since not many do this canyon in the Summer, lets throw in low 40 deg. water. You know, the kind that takes your breath away through your 5mm. wetsuit.

I've got the coolest/lightest, portable grappling hook you'll ever see. One needs to probably throw something 80-100' to catch anything more than sand sloping back at you. I can reliably throw it 100' with 8mm line. Interesting!!

Slot--not trying to dis you, nut dammm you make this canyoneering thing seem without risk.

[Mountaineer]

I've got the coolest/lightest, portable grappling hook you'll ever see. One needs to probably throw something 80-100' to catch anything more than sand sloping back at you. I can reliably throw it 100' with 8mm line. Interesting!!

Post up a pic!

[Absolute Gravity]

Slot--not trying to dis you, nut dammm you make this canyoneering thing seem without risk.

Maybe it's because I know the guy so well and am interpreting posts differently, but if you spend a day in a canyon with him you will find this is not the case.

[Slot Machine]

Maybe right now, sure, 1 in 1000. However, I would not have that attitude in general. I've been in that pothole before when it was as OldNo7 describes it. Where the water level was the same as in your picture, but I couldn't dive down deep enough to even touch the bottom, so forget about getting someone on your shoulders while you are under the surface. (I've also done that pothole, where we could do just that. Have someone under water, and someone else stand on their shoulders.) In fact, the first thing that came to my mind, when I saw your photo, was MAN, the pothole is in WAY easy mode right now.

However, I strongly caution everyone to NOT underestimate the problem this COULD pose in the future. Dude9478 is correct; you should be able to reverse and get out from there, just don't pull the rope.

We certainly don't carry a gambling attitude. We had detailed info about the pothole before we went it. I'm simply saying: what are the chances of the pothole being in 'perfect storm' mode on any given day? The odds seem slim.

Thanks for sharing your experiences AJ! After standing in that pothole it is very difficult to imagine not being able to dive to the bottom. I believe you, it's just tough to imagine. And I completely agree with your warning.

Slot machine is rather new to this sport, he's either overestimating his abilities or underestimating an obstacle or--he's the most talented canyoneer known.(canyonman?)

What abilities? By default, I have to choose choose:

B. Underestimating the obstacle.

I hope we get to try it in 'perfect storm' mode some day. It seems like a fun puzzle to figure out.

Bob

[ilipichicuma]

The first time I went through Neon (August of 2009) the canyon was so full of water I didn't even realize that pothole was there. I'd like to see it and give it a shot in mega-keeper mode, though. Sounds like a lot of fun! I always like a good pothole.

[oldno7]

Post up a pic!

Just cause you asked, I went looking for it, no go.

I took pictures of it and posted them.....Can't find em.

I will get the pics for you, just might have to give me a bit.

[oldno7]

Here it is:

First pic is not mine.

The legs screw in to the sides, when you remove them, they store inside.

I ran a loop of 6mm cord through the eye. Then when I wanted to throw, I clipped a carabiner on a bight of 8mm rope, then hooked into the cord.

There may be better devices now. I did break one of the spikes on this one but it gives you the basic idea and it is very light.

Writing on the side says, Not a Life Safety Device.

[oldno7]

Oh! When you said "this level", I thought you were talking sand level in the pothole, not water level. A simple misunderstanding on my part.

If the pothole were a swimmer with this level of sand, then you could simply swim across the pothole.



Attachment 65516

Or should I say, has anyone ever been through Neon when the floor is lower?

Much much lower and the water level 2-3' below the lip.

[ratagonia]

Exactly. Huge problem. Any tricks to escape? Three people, with two holding their breath? Grappling hook?

I think carrying a Supai pool toy would be your best bet for CLOSE TO guaranteeing a way out.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I think carrying a Supai pool toy would be your best bet for guaranteeing a way out.

There are no guarantee's in canyoneering.

[Slot Machine]

Under certain conditions, the large 2nd keeper pothole in Neon is famous for being a formidable obstacle. I’ve written a brief history about the pothole in hopes that future canyoneers will be better prepared to face the challenge. No information about the pothole could be obtained pre-1994, so that is where the story begins...

From 1994 until 2001 the infamous Neon keeper pothole was hidden underneath a flat gravel bar. No matter the water conditions, there was no indication of the pothole that lurked beneath. The gravel in the pothole was golf ball-sized, perhaps minimizing the chance of it being cleared away.

The pothole remained hidden until sometime during the winter of 2001-2002 when a flash flood scoured the pothole clean. This newly revealed pothole soon proved to be a formidable obstacle; sometimes making escape extremely difficult depending on the conditions.

The newly cleared pothole then existed in one of three modes depending on the depth of the water:

Swimmer Mode: Where one can simply swim out of the far side of the pothole.

Regular Mode: Where one can stand on the bottom of the pothole and still have one’s head above water.

Keeper Mode: Where one can neither stand on the bottom nor swim out.

When the pothole was first revealed, a team came through and measured the dimensions of the pothole. They estimated that the difference in water depth between swimmer mode and regular mode is about 18 inches (for a 6 foot tall person).

So, what are the odds of finding it in keeper mode? It is difficult to precisely estimate because the conditions are always changing. Evaporation combined with absorption of water into the stone can change the conditions from swimmer mode, to keeper mode and beyond to regular mode in a matter of weeks. The process might be shortened to just a few days in warmer weather.

If your group can’t get across the pothole you will be forced to retreat upcanyon.

There are a set of Moki steps on the LDC wall between the 1st and 2nd keeper potholes. These steps are difficult to climb (belay recommended). They lead to a view of the pothole, then a possible rappel back into the canyon between the 2nd keeper pothole and the Cathedral.

There are also a set of Moki steps on the RDC wall that can be taken up to the rim and back the approach trail. The first few steps are gone, but with a partner assist the rest are reachable.

Currently (4/13) there is significant amount of sand in the pothole which makes escape very easy. Obviously, that sand could be flushed out at any time. So if you go, always go prepared!

[ratagonia]

Under certain conditions, the large 2nd keeper pothole in Neon is famous for being a formidable obstacle. I’ve written a brief history about the pothole in hopes that future canyoneers will be better prepared to face the challenge. No information about the pothole could be obtained pre-1994, so that is where the story begins...

From 1994 until 2001 the infamous Neon keeper pothole was hidden underneath a flat gravel bar. No matter the water conditions, there was no indication of the pothole that lurked beneath. The gravel in the pothole was golf ball-sized, perhaps minimizing the chance of it being cleared away.

The pothole remained hidden until sometime during the winter of 2001-2002 when a flash flood scoured the pothole clean. This newly revealed pothole soon proved to be a formidable obstacle; sometimes making escape extremely difficult depending on the conditions.

The newly cleared pothole then existed in one of three modes depending on the depth of the water:

Swimmer Mode: Where one can simply swim out of the far side of the pothole.

Regular Mode: Where one can stand on the bottom of the pothole and still have one’s head above water.

Keeper Mode: Where one can neither stand on the bottom nor swim out.

When the pothole was first revealed a team came through and measured the dimensions of the pothole. They estimated that the difference in water depth between swimmer mode and regular mode is about 18 inches (for a 6 foot tall person).

So, what are the odds of finding it in keeper mode? It is difficult to precisely estimate because the conditions are always changing. Evaporation combined with absorption of water into the stone can change the conditions from swimmer mode, to keeper mode and beyond to regular mode in a matter of weeks. The process might be shortened to just a few days in warmer weather.

If your group can’t get across the pothole you will be forced to retreat upcanyon.

There are a set of Moki steps on the LDC wall between the 1st and 2nd keeper potholes. These steps are difficult to climb (belay recommended). They lead to a view of the pothole, then a possible rappel back into the canyon between the 2nd keeper pothole and the Cathedral.

There are also a set of Moki steps on the RDC wall that can be taken up to the rim and back the approach trail. The first few steps are gone, but with a partner assist the rest are reachable.

Currently (4/13) there is significant amount of sand in the pothole which makes escape very easy. Obviously, that sand could be flushed out at any time. So if you go, always go prepared!

Wow, Slot Machine. Your writing style has improved vastly and your knowledge of the Utah backcountry has taken a huge leap forward.

Unless of course you pulled that from somewhere else or from someone else, which, without attribution, is really poor form. As in fraud, plagiarism, theft - that kinda thing. Perhaps you would add a citation to your post, you know, to make it legit.

Tom

[Absolute Gravity]

Wow, Slot Machine. Your writing style has improved vastly and your knowledge of the Utah backcountry has taken a huge leap forward.

Unless of course you pulled that from somewhere else or from someone else, which, without attribution, is really poor form. As in fraud, plagiarism, theft - that kinda thing. Perhaps you would add a citation to your post, you know, to make it legit.

Tom

All posts containing any useful information whatsoever are now required to go through an editor. Any knowledge gained in the backcountry or on this forum is not yours and instead belongs to someone who may have seen or experienced it before you did. This is a professional organization here and violators will be punished accordingly.

[Slot Machine]

Wow, Slot Machine. Your writing style has improved vastly and your knowledge of the Utah backcountry has taken a huge leap forward.

Unless of course you pulled that from somewhere else or from someone else, which, without attribution, is really poor form. As in fraud, plagiarism, theft - that kinda thing. Perhaps you would add a citation to your post, you know, to make it legit.

Tom

I wrote every word myself, based on a sort-of interview, collaboration, thingy. So... AND thank you for the compliment! It like accusing me of being on steroids.

This ain't no medical journal, so I don't have to cite my sources. If you must know, my resource wishes to remain anonymous.

Bob

[Slot Machine]

...fraud, plagiarism, theft - that kinda thing.

...waiting for even a freckle of proof to back up the above asinie accusation...

*crickets*

[Iceaxe]

Under certain conditions, the large 2nd keeper pothole in Neon is famous for being a formidable obstacle. I’ve written a brief history about the pothole in hopes that future canyoneers will be better prepared to face the challenge. No information about the pothole could be obtained pre-1994, so that is where the story begins...

From 1994 until 2001 the infamous Neon keeper pothole was hidden underneath a flat gravel bar. No matter the water conditions, there was no indication of the pothole that lurked beneath. The gravel in the pothole was golf ball-sized, perhaps minimizing the chance of it being cleared away.

The pothole remained hidden until sometime during the winter of 2001-2002 when a flash flood scoured the pothole clean. This newly revealed pothole soon proved to be a formidable obstacle; sometimes making escape extremely difficult depending on the conditions.

The newly cleared pothole then existed in one of three modes depending on the depth of the water:

Swimmer Mode: Where one can simply swim out of the far side of the pothole.

Regular Mode: Where one can stand on the bottom of the pothole and still have one’s head above water.

Keeper Mode: Where one can neither stand on the bottom nor swim out.

When the pothole was first revealed, a team came through and measured the dimensions of the pothole. They estimated that the difference in water depth between swimmer mode and regular mode is about 18 inches (for a 6 foot tall person).

So, what are the odds of finding it in keeper mode? It is difficult to precisely estimate because the conditions are always changing. Evaporation combined with absorption of water into the stone can change the conditions from swimmer mode, to keeper mode and beyond to regular mode in a matter of weeks. The process might be shortened to just a few days in warmer weather.

If your group can’t get across the pothole you will be forced to retreat upcanyon.

There are a set of Moki steps on the LDC wall between the 1st and 2nd keeper potholes. These steps are difficult to climb (belay recommended). They lead to a view of the pothole, then a possible rappel back into the canyon between the 2nd keeper pothole and the Cathedral.

There are also a set of Moki steps on the RDC wall that can be taken up to the rim and back the approach trail. The first few steps are gone, but with a partner assist the rest are reachable.

Currently (4/13) there is significant amount of sand in the pothole which makes escape very easy. Obviously, that sand could be flushed out at any time. So if you go, always go prepared!

How did I miss this the first time?

Great history of the keeper pothole, thanks for doing the reasearch and providing a valuable/interesting tool.