Manti Boy Scouts, leaders airlifted after being stranded in slot canyon

[accadacca]

This was posted to the bogley Facebook page: http://facebook.com/BogleyOutdoorCommunity

"All of the boys were 17 yrs. old, and all of them did Baptist Draw last year, plus another slot canyon in Zion, and all could have finished this hike. One leader that insisted on going could not finish and chose to send the others out to get help just for him. They were left with food and water and stuff to keep a fire going all night. The ones they stayed behind stayed to be with the leader that chose to not go on, which was a good otherwise he probably would have gotten hurt. Yes some mistakes were made, you can't predict everything that is going to happen in the outdoors, or with a group of scouts, and you can't even predict whether going to watch the Boston Marathon is a good idea, so thats why it is best not to judge anyone or anything, although we are all untitled to our opinions."

[Spidey]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, while giving the dumb asses in Constrychnine a pass. Both groups required expensive rescue's for avoidable problems. Brought on by poor leadership, planning, judgement etc etc.

As for Pandora's box being more than scout's can handle, Rubbish. If we apply the same logic, someone from the group in Constrychnine had to be rescued, therefore non of them belong in there.

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Now was this specific group in over their heads? It looks that way, but it seems as though most are making blanket statements in this thread about scouts in general. While I just finished reading the other accident report from the weekend, and didn't see anyone criticizing the group at large for their EPIC FAIL. Perhaps I need to reread both threads.

[Scott P]

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Having been a scout leader for a long time, there are several scouts I would take to places like that (in fact I'd take my own kids whom are younger than boy scouts on several of those). There are also several scouts that I would not take to those places. Therefore, personally I don't think it be a scout friendly trip and I wouldn't make it an official scout activity. It would just be a friendly gathering that just happens to include a few young friends along that just happen to be boy scouts. Of course opinions may vary.

[toshkya]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

[Spidey]

Having been a scout leader for a long time, there are several scouts I would take to places like that (in fact I'd take my own kids whom are younger than boy scouts on several of those). There are also several scouts that I would not take to those places. Therefore, personally I don't think it be a scout friendly trip and I wouldn't make it an official scout activity. It would just be a friendly gathering that just happens to include a few young friends along that just happen to be boy scouts. Of course opinions may vary.

Agreed.

[rlasson]

While I understand your point, I believe that even if the LDS church drops out of BSA, then it really won't change the number of wards taking youth groups outdoor adventures like they have in the past. It could even make those wards less prepared as they wouldn't have the guidelines and training that BSA provides (though I'd admit that currently the enforcement of those guidelines/policies is inadequate.)

While I've done a significant amount of training to be qualified to take BSA groups out canyoneering, I've been astonished by some of the lack of preparation and training that I've seen from other BSA troops I've seen along the way. Unfortunately, one of those groups had an accident where a boy fell and was seriously injured. I would never send my son on a BSA activity without knowing that the leaders were appropriately trained and could be trusted.

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

[Kuya]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, ....

As for Pandora's box being more than scout's can handle, Rubbish. ....

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Now was this specific group in over their heads? It looks that way, but it seems as though most are making blanket statements in this thread about scouts in general. ....

1st I am only throwing the Scout Leaders under the "Bus" . It is pretty obvious that they misjudged the canyon. I am so glad that everyone escaped safely, BUT I don't feel it out-of-bounds to pass a little judgement. First and foremost, it helps me learn from their mistakes so I don't do something similar in the future. Judgment will be passed, I just hope that more facts come to the surface so we can make a more accurate judgement.

2nd is it really "rubbish" to claim that Pandoras box was over their heads? obviously it was, and probably is for a lot of scout groups. on the other hand, if a venture crew wanted to do somthing like that, I don't see it being a problem, AS LONG AS they have a competent leader guiding them. Where this rescue gets tricky is determining the competency of the leader. Had they done the canyon before? what was their experience hiking "longer" canyons? Hiking canyons like Baptist Draw are much different than canyons like Pandoras box IMO.

all in all, I just hope this doesn't make things more complicated for us in the UNPC to take our scouts out canyoneering. It is already a big enough mess with way too many hoops to jump through.

[Kuya]

While I understand your point, I believe that even if the LDS church drops out of BSA, then it really won't change the number of wards taking youth groups outdoor adventures like they have in the past. It could even make those wards less prepared as they wouldn't have the guidelines and training that BSA provides (though I'd admit that currently the enforcement of those guidelines/policies is inadequate.)

While I've done a significant amount of training to be qualified to take BSA groups out canyoneering, I've been astonished by some of the lack of preparation and training that I've seen from other BSA troops I've seen along the way. Unfortunately, one of those groups had an accident where a boy fell and was seriously injured. I would never send my son on a BSA activity without knowing that the leaders were appropriately trained and could be trusted.

ditto

[accadacca]

1st I am only throwing the Scout Leaders under the "Bus" . It is pretty obvious that they misjudged the canyon. I am so glad that everyone escaped safely, BUT I don't feel it out-of-bounds to pass a little judgement. First and foremost, it helps me learn from their mistakes so I don't do something similar in the future. Judgment will be passed, I just hope that more facts come to the surface so we can make a more accurate judgement.

2nd is it really "rubbish" to claim that Pandoras box was over their heads? obviously it was, and probably is for a lot of scout groups. on the other hand, if a venture crew wanted to do somthing like that, I don't see it being a problem, AS LONG AS they have a competent leader guiding them. Where this rescue gets tricky is determining the competency of the leader. Had they done the canyon before? what was their experience hiking "longer" canyons? Hiking canyons like Baptist Draw are much different than canyons like Pandoras box IMO.

all in all, I just hope this doesn't make things more complicated for us in the UNPC to take our scouts out canyoneering. It is already a big enough mess with way too many hoops to jump through.

Just in case you missed it. Seems like someone in the know...

This was posted to the bogley Facebook page: http://facebook.com/BogleyOutdoorCommunity

"All of the boys were 17 yrs. old, and all of them did Baptist Draw last year, plus another slot canyon in Zion, and all could have finished this hike. One leader that insisted on going could not finish and chose to send the others out to get help just for him. They were left with food and water and stuff to keep a fire going all night. The ones they stayed behind stayed to be with the leader that chose to not go on, which was a good otherwise he probably would have gotten hurt. Yes some mistakes were made, you can't predict everything that is going to happen in the outdoors, or with a group of scouts, and you can't even predict whether going to watch the Boston Marathon is a good idea, so thats why it is best not to judge anyone or anything, although we are all untitled to our opinions."

[Absolute Gravity]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

Someone forgot their morning coffee.

[Iceaxe]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus,

I believe this is more of a "we reap what we sow" type of deal.... I have had some very positive experience with scouts and meet some amazing leaders and scout troops. I've also had numerous bad experiences with scout troops causing all sorts of havoc and destruction. I believe most will agree, the scouts have earned their reputation.

IMHO, If scouting wants to improve it's image something must be done to raise the bottom feeders up to at least a level of mediocrity.

YMMV

[Scott Card]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

[jman]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

Nice, and you sound like the competent, TOLERANT leader that the BSA is looking for (especially being tolerant of us hate-promoting LDS leaders).

[Iceaxe]

Nice, and you sound like the competent, TOLERANT leader that the BSA is looking for.

BAZINGA!!!

[Spidey]

I believe this is more of a "we reap what we sow" type of deal.... I have had some very positive experience with scouts and meet some amazing leaders and scout troops. I've also had numerous bad experiences with scout troops causing all sorts of havoc and destruction. I believe most will agree, the scouts have earned their reputation.

IMHO, If scouting wants to improve it's image something must be done to raise the bottom feeders up to at least a level of mediocrity.

YMMV

Agreed. My main point was regarding the disparity in tone from the other rescue thread, and the broad strokes that were being used to paint all scouts.

I stand by my statement that the difference in attitude between the 2 threads is a bunch of crap. Both groups showed gross levels of incompetence to arrive at their respective situations. If the scouts and leaders are to be trashed and belittled, then so should the group in Constrychnine.

[hesse15]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, while giving the dumb asses in Constrychnine a pass. Both groups required expensive rescue's for avoidable problems. Brought on by poor leadership, planning, judgement etc etc.

anyone criticizing the group at large for their EPIC FAIL. Perhaps I need to reread both threads.

just for information The person that fell in costrichnine is a CERTIFIED BSA CANYON LEADER!!!!!!
and he had already a lot of mishap with the troop,but for him was just good memories to share.........did not see that as mistakes!!!!

your skills are above 99% of the canyoneering out there.
Pretty sure you can do a full family reunion in Choprock if you want!!!!! including old auntes and grandmas.......just carrying them on your shoulders!

[Brian in SLC]

I stand by my statement that the difference in attitude between the 2 threads is a bunch of crap. Both groups showed gross levels of incompetence to arrive at their respective situations. If the scouts and leaders are to be trashed and belittled, then so should the group in Constrychnine.

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!

[ratagonia]

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!

With more thorough preparation, the Manti Scout Leaders could have used the 3rd class escape route that starts fairly close to where they spent the night. OR, the exiting scouts could have come around the next morning and dropped a rope to them to jug out on, from the top of the South Fork. Self-Rescue - always honorable.

There are many other ways this could have ended. Hauling them out by helicopter is not among the worst.

Just as in Constrychnine, THIS group (and THAT group) was (de facto) over their heads, beyond their skill set. At least the Manti scouts got over their heads in a reasonably difficult canyon, rather than the knucklehead in the beginner canyon Constrychnine, who made a beginner mistake. That he was the "leader" of the group is amazing. I am happy that his incompetence did not also break Rule #2.

[Spidey]

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!

While I greatly respect your opinion Brian. I disagree with you on the claim that there are major differences. In the details sure, but in the grand scheme of things we have 2 incidents requiring rescue that were entirely avoidable. Both of which put SAR personnel at risk. Once we establish that both were entirely avoidable the differences in the details become irrelevant IMO.


Both of which are being discussed here, with glaringly different tones. That is the real difference. Again IMO

[ratagonia]

Both of which are being discussed here, with glaringly different tones. That is the real difference. Again IMO

I think the difference in tone is due to, that in one, the fellow who made the mistake got seriously hurt. There is a reluctance by some to speak poorly of those in the hospital, no matter how incompetent they were.

Tom