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Thread: Looking for beta on canyons near Moab

  1. #1

    Looking for beta on canyons near Moab

    Normally I use Tom Jones' route descriptions for canyoneering but he doesn't have anything for the area right around Moab. And Google searches just keep sending me to sites requiring membership fees.

    I'm looking for betas on the following canyons near Moab:

    1. Medieval Chamber / Morning Glory
    2. Rock of Ages / Pool Arch Canyon
    3. Entrajo
    4. Pleiades

    If anyone has descriptions they would be willing to share or can point me to some good betas I would very much appreciate it.

    Thanks!!!

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  3. #2

  4. #3
    Yes, AJ Road Trips has some good information. I have done both Morning Glory and Entrajo. Morning Glory was my first canyon actually. It was a great excursion. The hike out was very beautiful from what I remember.

    My group had a little trouble finding Entrajo, but we found it eventually.

    Cheers!

  5. #4
    Just curious…. How much is good reliable beta you can trust worth to You?

    How much time have you spent looking for beta? How much more time are you willing to invest looking for questionable beta? How much is your time worth to you?

    Yes, you can probably find all the answers you seek with enough time and effort, but at what point or dollar figure does it become counter productive?

    How much are you willing to invest to help uncover and accurately beta addintional canyoneering routes each year?

    Yes, the questions above are a serious inquiry and anyone is free to offer an opinion or thought.




  6. #5
    Iceaxe, is that a shameless plug for people to cough up $40 each?

    No thanks. If Tom Jones doesn't have it on his site then I'm willing to work for it rather than pay money. I actually trust people less when they're accepting money in return for their knowledge. So I'll pass.

    And so I go to bogley and mountain project and summit post and read the forums to get some idea of what the route is like. I post beta requests in the hope that someone with a complete beta will be willing to share so I can get a more comprehensive picture of the trip than just what I glean from the forums. And then I get on Google Earth and take a look at it. And by the time I'm done I've got a very good trip description that I feel comfortable relying on because nobody gave it to me in order to extract money from me.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by baustin View Post
    Iceaxe, is that a shameless plug for people to cough up $40 each?

    No thanks. If Tom Jones doesn't have it on his site then I'm willing to work for it rather than pay money. I actually trust people less when they're accepting money in return for their knowledge. So I'll pass.

    And so I go to bogley and mountain project and summit post and read the forums to get some idea of what the route is like. I post beta requests in the hope that someone with a complete beta will be willing to share so I can get a more comprehensive picture of the trip than just what I glean from the forums. And then I get on Google Earth and take a look at it. And by the time I'm done I've got a very good trip description that I feel comfortable relying on because nobody gave it to me in order to extract money from me.
    I always found the $40 to be very reasonable for the insanely insane amount of beta available on CU.com.......but......ymmv

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Just curious…. How much is good reliable beta you can trust worth to You?

    How much time have you spent looking for beta? How much more time are you willing to invest looking for questionable beta? How much is your time worth to you?

    Yes, you can probably find all the answers you seek with enough time and effort, but at what point or dollar figure does it become counter productive?

    How much are you willing to invest to help uncover and accurately beta addintional canyoneering routes each year?

    Yes, the questions above are a serious inquiry and anyone is free to offer an opinion or thought.



    Ice, I have wanted to get beta off of your site a few times but $40 for what amounts to me getting 2 routes just seems a bit steep.. Now if I was going more often I would be all over it, I have found A. that your information provided on Bogley has been spot on and B. Accuracy matters when you are on the sharp end and worth some $$. That said what is the possibility of setting up single view fees.. Say I wanted Beta for 1 canyon let me pay $3 to view that information so I don't have to fork out $40 at one time (yes I am cheap, and yes over time it may end up more than $40 if I keep viewing things) it makes me feel better if I didn't end up getting away for the rest of the year and wasting money on something I didn't need.. wow that was rambley I am going to blame it on my sinus headache and let you decipher it
    Tacoma Said - If Scott he asks you to go on a hike, ask careful questions like "Is it going to be on a trail?" "What are the chances it will kill me?" etc. Maybe "Will there be sack-biting ants along the way?"

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DOSS View Post
    Ice, I have wanted to get beta off of your site a few times but $40 for what amounts to me getting 2 routes just seems a bit steep.. Now if I was going more often I would be all over it, I have found A. that your information provided on Bogley has been spot on and B. Accuracy matters when you are on the sharp end and worth some $$. That said what is the possibility of setting up single view fees.. Say I wanted Beta for 1 canyon let me pay $3 to view that information so I don't have to fork out $40 at one time (yes I am cheap, and yes over time it may end up more than $40 if I keep viewing things) it makes me feel better if I didn't end up getting away for the rest of the year and wasting money on something I didn't need.. wow that was rambley I am going to blame it on my sinus headache and let you decipher it
    I think you're trying to say if you only use the site/beta once or twice a year then its not worth it, but if you do go a lot it is worth it? And that a "pay by canyon" system would help those who only go once or twice?

  10. Likes DOSS liked this post
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by baustin View Post
    Iceaxe, is that a shameless plug for people to cough up $40 each?

    No thanks. If Tom Jones doesn't have it on his site then I'm willing to work for it rather than pay money. I actually trust people less when they're accepting money in return for their knowledge. So I'll pass.
    Hmmm... Tom sales gear to pay for his website. Just anther way to skin the same old cat.

    But, using your reasoning... does that mean you trust Tom's gear less because you have to pay for it?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    I think you're trying to say if you only use the site/beta once or twice a year then its not worth it, but if you do go a lot it is worth it? And that a "pay by canyon" system would help those who only go once or twice?
    Good Ciphering sport
    Tacoma Said - If Scott he asks you to go on a hike, ask careful questions like "Is it going to be on a trail?" "What are the chances it will kill me?" etc. Maybe "Will there be sack-biting ants along the way?"

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DOSS View Post
    Ice, I have wanted to get beta off of your site a few times but $40 for what amounts to me getting 2 routes just seems a bit steep.
    You could always print off 10 routes and have your entertainment for the next 5 years.

    The reason I asked the questions was to try and gain a better understanding of what people want. I tried to price it so the average person can pay for it with only a couple of hours of work, which seems a fair price to me. I often spend 2 or 3 hours researching one new route. Heck, I spent three full days last year trying to find Red Man of Tempie Valley.

    From my point of view I have to make it worth my time to compile and maintain the website. My real job pays very well, I love it, and I can work as many hours as I choose. In other words, if I spent the time on my real job I spend in Climb-Utah I'd make a lot more money. To me, Climb-Utah is a hobby that pays for itself.

    FWIW: originally Climb-Utah was free, but that created a lot of problems and the canyons were getting trashed. People just respect things more when they have to work for it (show-don't-tell) or pay for it. They also take suggestions like don't bolt and watch for rope grooves a lot more serious.

    Anyhoo... the above comments are not meant as an argument or rebuttal. They are just supplied so you have a bigger picture to work with of why I do things the way I do.

    One other item that has always baffled me.... why don't people bitch about buying a guidebook, but dislike paying for a website? I see no real difference, except for the fact the website can be kept current and it would take 10 guidebooks if you wanted to actually publish all of the Climb-Utah website. Gosh, I own all of Kelsey's guidebooks, I have a stack of about 40 (some I have 4 or 5 editions of). I always thought dropping $15 for a Kelsey book to be a bargain.

    One Item I have contemplated is splitting the website into a Canyoneering website and a hiking, or maybe a rock art and ruins website, or maybe all three. But it's much easier for me to maintain only one website, so if I split them the cost of the individual website will decrease, but the cost of buying a membership to all three will increase. Just food for thought.

    Thanks for the comments so far.... I last asked these question about 10 years ago and I'm just trying to get a feel to see if things have changed or what directions I should consider.


  14. Likes SRG, bjp liked this post
  15. #12
    When I first started reading on this forum, all I could think about was why wasn't beta shared more freely. After seeing how many people are down in Southern Utah doing this stuff, I now know.

    I may someday pay the $40 for your page, but have enjoyed finding beta the hard way so far. Someday that may change if I start doing more frequent trips/canyons or start getting into canyons that are hard to find any beta at all on.

    Your gear list page helped me immensely when I was starting out and was planning all this stuff myself, which I still enjoy doing. Thank you much!

  16. #13
    Personally, I like the idea of paying $5 or so per route with the option of getting the whole enchilada for $40. You are right, time is money but without knowing the quality/quantity upfront, it is tough to cough up the $40 but I think as most people move from noobs to experienced, they will go from 1 or 2 $5 purchases to the $40 - Always let the customer get a taste of what you are selling. Lastly - thanks for supporting the community.

  17. #14
    I agree, $5 for a canyon is a very good idea.

  18. #15
    I think the idea of a pay by play is great. Personally I paid the membership fee and I go often enough that I have more than got my moneys worth, but I can see how others might not use it as often enough. Unforunately you can't please everyone so no matter what you do someone will complain about it.

  19. #16
    Everything in life we pay for wheather you think so or not. I pay for CU and love it. I think $40 is a small price to pay for good beta. Now, I will say I collect data from multiple sources, ask many questions, and post on bogley and just do general detective work in general and more often than not you will get the answers you need combining all these sources. Just look at it as a online guide book.

  20. #17
    This might be a little off topic, but I'm always amazed that some canyoneers have a hard time blowing the dust off their wallets and spending a couple of bucks on a high quality product (beta, gear or safety).


    As some of you know I originally come from a racing background. In my younger years I made my living racing everywhere from the high banks of Daytona, the sands of Baja, the salt of Utah, and everywhere in between. In that environment guys will drop tens of thousands of dollars on an item that will give them a 1/10th of a second advantage and not blink twice, They will dump thousands into Nomex, helmets, survival cells and fire suppression systems to ensure their safety. And than I see canyoneers using questionable webbing because they don't want to spend $2 to replace tattered gear.... sometimes I just shake my head in wonderment as I really don't understand the thinking or mind set.


    Anyhoo.... just rambling...

  21. #18
    One problem with purchasing a subscription from Climb-Utah is that you can't pick it up, and feel it's weight, so to speak. It feels like a gamble when you purchase your subscription. But from my experience, Climb-Utah has some heft to it. Especially the Moab section.

    We spent a week in Moab last fall, and used Shane's beta exclusively. It's easily worth $40 just for his Moab routes because they aren't like most canyoneering routes. The Moab routes wind over and through sandstone fins. They are very tough to decipher using satellite imagery. Some, like Pleiades, are nearly impossible to find on your own.

    Just 2 cents, from someone that was in beta-less shoes not very long ago.

    Bob
    THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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    DON'T BE A STRANGER, LEAVE A COMMENT AND/OR SUBSCRIBE.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    One problem with purchasing a subscription from Climb-Utah is that you can't pick it up, and feel it's weight, so to speak. It feels like a gamble when you purchase your subscription. But from my experience, Climb-Utah has some heft to it. Especially the Moab section.

    We spent a week in Moab last fall, and used Shane's beta exclusively. It's easily worth $40 just for his Moab routes because they aren't like most canyoneering routes. The Moab routes wind over and through sandstone fins. They are very tough to decipher using satellite imagery. Some, like Pleiades, are nearly impossible to find on your own.

    Just 2 cents, from someone that was in beta-less shoes not very long ago.

    Bob
    Print it out. I printed just the Moab section, organized it into a three-ring binder thinking I'd have plenty of room later to add the other areas to my binder. Plenty of heft, and when I get around to it I'm going to have to make additional binders for each additional area.

  23. #20
    I've always been thrifty with my $. $5 to test out an unknown dataset is something I'm not concerned about and very willing to test out. $40, while not that big in the grand scheme of things, is more and I don't want to dump it unless I know it's got real value to me. I think there are plenty of other people with the same mindset.

    I raced road bikes for a number of years and know that people dump $ for returns on all sorts of stuff, but many less would spend on something they weren't sure had a guaranteed return value. $5 for a canyon lets people determine if they like the service and will blow more on future canyons or just dump the $40 for unlimited.

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