Accident in Constrychnine

[Brian in SLC]

I think people put way too much faith in these bolts that are placed in sandstone. I can't tell you how many times we have had the bolts fail when installed into concrete footings. And these are placed in sandstone. Be prudent with anchor choices.

But...look at the shear number of bolts in sandstone in Utah, the U.S. sandstone belt (Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, West Virginia), Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada (1000's in Red Rocks) and, around the world (Australia comes to mind) then consider how many rock climbers sport climb on these anchors, every day, over and over again. When was the last time you heard of a bolt failure?

Now, you don't need to review many years of ANAM to see how often "natural" anchors fail at least for climbers, and, they fail fairly regularly (or the rigging from the anchor) in canyons.

I'm not saying just blindly trusty bolts, but, they are pretty reasonable anchor choices. And, had that anchor not been chopped in this canyon...well...its location alone seemed to be a reasonable solution on a number of fronts.

Yeah, be prudent and consider reasonable anchor choices...especially given how anchor location can contribute to degradation of the resource and safety. Regardless of whether fixed anchors, or, "natural" (or those ugly "unnatural" anchors like rock stacks, deadmen, etc).

[oldno7]

Wasn't a bolt, was a piton and whomever installed it didn't drill a deep enough hole.

It stuck above the sandstone and flexed like crazy when loaded.

It was good to pull, a proper replacement would have been nice, since this is trade route.

[Brian in SLC]

Wasn't a bolt, was a piton and whomever installed it didn't drill a deep enough hole.

It stuck above the sandstone and flexed like crazy when loaded.

It was good to pull, a proper replacement would have been nice, since this is trade route.

Had heard it was a bolt and a pin, and, "someone" replaced the bolt with a better bolt, then, "someone" removed the whole anchor after some dust up over replacing the bolt. Er something.

Anyhoo, got to see a bunch of photo's of the location and hear this story from a number of folks earlier this week. Yikes.

[2065toyota]

I'd still choose a tree over a bolt. Have you ever tried to pull a live tree out of the ground. Of course climbers use bolts on shear cliff faces so that's really not a fair comparison. Bits wear out and get replaced all the time. Are you saying that trees wear out by the same percentage

[Brian in SLC]

I'd still choose a tree over a bolt. Have you ever tried to pull a live tree out of the ground. Of course climbers use bolts on shear cliff faces so that's really not a fair comparison. Bits wear out and get replaced all the time. Are you saying that trees wear out by the same percentage

Huh? Yeah, I just went outside and pulled a tree out of the ground in my backyard. By hand. Neat.

We weren't discussing trees in this thread...and...I'm not sure there was a live tree option as a rappel anchor in Constrychnine...but...

Anchors will present themselves in all manners and forms. Live trees, dead trees, rocks, horns, piles of dirt, bags of water (apparently), bags of sand, etc, and the bolted anchor. Being able to judge the relative "goodness" of these anchors is one aspect of this game. But, another is being able to judge which anchor is appropriate for a given situation and solution. Clear as mud sometimes.

I've seen a number of tree anchors over the years die off from over use. There's areas in the country (spots in Shawnee Nat'l Forest in So. Ill for one) that have banned climbing and rappelling from the cliffs due to erosion from fragile topside ecology being damaged from anchoring to trees. Some areas have gone to bolted anchors to save trees. The dogfather of Texas rock climbing (Mr James Crump) says:

We in Texas, and specifically at Enchanted Rock State Natural Area have placed bolts to protect the trees, to dissuade against their use as anchors. In our arid, climatically tough environment, abusing trees with ropes and anchors can cause significant impact, and as a natural area, climbing impact needs to be mitigated. We actively place bolt anchors where inexperienced climbers would use a tree.

We have followed a logic for inexperienced climbers that they would choose as an anchor, a bolt first, a tree second, and lastly a traditionally built anchor. While this might strike against some traditional ethos around bolts vs cracks, we found that killing trees by using them as an anchor regardless if there were cracks available, threatened our access and good relationship with Texas Parks and Wildlife.

Therefore, beginning as early as the mid-80's we placed bolts to protect our trees and have maintained this for almost 3 decades as an accepted, TWPD-supported, traditional practice.

Save the trees.

Just this year, there's been a canyon fatality from a tree anchor...not saying that a bolted anchor would have been safer, but, there seems to be less accidents from them with regard to rigging.

Bits wearing out versus trees as a percentage? Gonna have to cogitate on that one. Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China, but...

Here's a nicely situated tree anchor that makes sense (canyon descent on the east side of Kolob Creek south of Trespass Canyon):



Live tree, for some reason growing almost perpendicular to the fall line, over the drop. Free air, no rope rub, fat tree (plenty robust), easy to rig, easy to inspect, easy to get on rappel. Kinda perfect.

Sometimes live trees make sense as rap anchors. In the case of Keyhole in Zion, folks debated this by using the big pine tree, adding an anchor at the drop, chopping the anchor at the drop, adding the anchor back to the drop...

Anyhoo...what were we talking about again? Ha ha...

Cheers and be safe.

[Get in the Wild]

Thank you very much for the detailed report Rick and for your sentiments about anchors.

[Iceaxe]

The original anchor was a very poorly placed piton that was an accident waiting to happen. Whomever pulled the piton did the canyoneering community a service.

There was also a sister piton in Arscenic that was removed when the routes were originally betaed.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Get in the Wild]

After talking to local SAR staff in Hanksville and from other sources, it appears that large group size may have played a role in this accident. For those that are unaware, group size is limited to a maximum of 12 in the Dirty Devil River corridor and permits are required for all organized groups. For additional information contact the BLM Henry Mountains Field Station in Hanksville.

[Iceaxe]

Is a set of rules for the Dirty Devil Corridor available anywhere on-line? What are the boundaries of the corridor? I'm normally very up to date on this stuff and I've never heard of this limit on canyoneering before. I talk with most the land managers, including Hanksville BLM, a couple times a year and no one has ever mentioned a 12 person limit or anything other then the standard BLM rules.

Kinda hard for canyoneers to follow rules they don't know exist or if they actually exist.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Canyonbug]

Is a set of rules for the Dirty Devil Corridor available anywhere on-line? What are the boundaries of the corridor? I'm normally very up to date on this stuff and I've never heard of this limit on canyoneering before. I talk with most the land managers, including Hanksville BLM, a couple times a year and no one has ever mentioned a 12 person limit or anything other then the standard BLM rules.

Kinda hard for canyoneers to follow rules they don't know exist or if they actually exist.

Shane
I know the rules that he is referring to are in place for guides and permit holders for commercial guiding. These rules were given to me when we applied for and obtained our permits. I may be wrong, but don't believe those rules apply for non-commercial activity in the area.

[Brian in SLC]

After talking to local SAR staff in Hanksville and from other sources, it appears that large group size may have played a role in this accident.

How so? I'd be curious how large group size was a part of this.

[Iceaxe]

Shane
I know the rules that he is referring to are in place for guides and permit holders for commercial guiding. These rules were given to me when we applied for and obtained our permits. I may be wrong, but don't believe those rules apply for non-commercial activity in the area.

Thanks, I knew commercial ventures had additional rules. Just didn't know what they were.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[outsider]

Is a set of rules for the Dirty Devil Corridor available anywhere on-line? What are the boundaries of the corridor? I'm normally very up to date on this stuff and I've never heard of this limit on canyoneering before. I talk with most the land managers, including Hanksville BLM, a couple times a year and no one has ever mentioned a 12 person limit or anything other then the standard BLM rules.

Kinda hard for canyoneers to follow rules they don't know exist or if they actually exist.

I am not aware of anything on the BLM website, at least that is easy to find/read, but this kind of info can be found on the American Canyoneers access pages - see http://www.americancanyoneers.org/access-robbers-roost/. The information on that page was put together after talking to Hanksville BLM personnel. Many other popular canyon areas are covered on the AC site as well.

-john

[Get in the Wild]

Unfortunately, these rules are not currently available online. I've made this suggestion to the BLM because indeed it can be difficult to follow rules if you don't know they exist. The current BLM regulations for a maximum group size of 12 applies to camp areas as well as hiking and canyoneering areas. Essentially, 12 is the maximum size that you can operate with in this corridor regardless of whether you are camping, hiking, backpacking, canyoneering, etc. The reasoning is because the BLM protects solitude in this corridor. The BLM also limits the number of groups that can operate or camp in a specific location. This is the reason for the permit requirement for organized groups. The permit requirement is not just for commercial operations--it is for any organized group such as the Boy Scouts, YMCA, or colleges. In addition to a permit, the BLM requires pre-trip itineraries for organized groups in this area. Again, this is to protect solitude as well as to prevent groups from camping, hiking, backpacking, canyoneering, etc. in the same areas at the same time.

[hesse15]

After talking to local SAR staff in Hanksville and from other sources, it appears that large group size may have played a role in this accident. For those that are unaware, group size is limited to a maximum of 12 in the Dirty Devil River corridor and permits are required for all organized groups. For additional information contact the BLM Henry Mountains Field Station in Hanksville.

sorry you got it totally wrong!!!
were you there?
I was!
dynamic was group of 4 included leadr + separate group of 4 with leader (me)+ group of 6 with leader and group of 8 with 2 leaders (one was bruce)
i will get the cause more on the ages and sex in the group (i think 3 were below 30years old and all males)
i prefer do canyons with girls so much better than young testosterone kids!!!!!!
so you wrong in this assumption was a big group

the leaders were just playing too much with the kids to pay attention to the anchor! that is what happened!

[hesse15]

I am not aware of anything on the BLM website, at least that is easy to find/read, but this kind of info can be found on the American Canyoneers access pages - see http://www.americancanyoneers.org/access-robbers-roost/. The information on that page was put together after talking to Hanksville BLM personnel.

from what i know the site mentioned is a private site started by bunch of people and does not have any government credentials or authorizations!!!
Am I wrong?
I think only when a website links to the BLM or other government entity for laws and regulation will be a little more credible and trusted!!!
but did not see ANY references to actual laws there!!!!

[ratagonia]

We saw that other way too but I think we were worried about how much rope was in contact with the rock on the pull or something. Or maybe we saw an anchor above that slot and didn't notice that chokestone. Hell idk that's been too many canyons ago. But we decided the bush would be alright. Light and quick rap that's for sure.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Bushes in general have very shallow roots. Be careful out there.

[outsider]

from what i know the site mentioned is a private site started by bunch of people and does not have any government credentials or authorizations!!!
Am I wrong?
I think only when a website links to the BLM or other government entity for laws and regulation will be a little more credible and trusted!!!
but did not see ANY references to actual laws there!!!!

Like Get in the Wild, I think it would be great if the BLM had this kind of information on an easy to access website, but that does not appear to be the case (yet). If you want to be sure to get accurate information, I would suggest talking to the BLM directly. The page I referenced also has the Hanksville BLM contact info so that you can easily do so.

-john

[hesse15]

Like Get in the Wild, I think it would be great if the BLM had this kind of information on an easy to access website, but that does not appear to be the case (yet). If you want to be sure to get accurate information, I would suggest talking to the BLM directly. The page I referenced also has the Hanksville BLM contact info so that you can easily do so.

-john

usually government always has laws posted,
my question arised because i never heard before about the 12 people limits and apparently there is not a single reference to back it up anywhere else!!!!

so the problem for accidents are not # of people or regulations but more than people forget often common sense at home!!!

[Scott P]

I did find the source for the 12 people group limit in the Dirty Devil Corridor, but the way it was written, it sounds like it mostly applies mostly to boaters?

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...ilBrochure.pdf

A Special Recreation Permit is required from the
BLM when anyone intends to make recreational
use of the river for business or financial gain or
for educational or scientific purposes. Group
sizes are limited to twelve members. Contact
the Hanksville BLM Field Office for clarification.