Accident in Constrychnine

[Iceaxe]

I did find the source for the 12 people group limit in the Dirty Devil Corridor, but the way it was written, it sounds like it mostly applies mostly to boaters?

The way it is written also makes it sound like it only applies to commerical, educational or scientific purposes.

[Get in the Wild]

sorry you got it totally wrong!!!
were you there?
I was!
dynamic was group of 4 included leadr + separate group of 4 with leader (me)+ group of 6 with leader and group of 8 with 2 leaders (one was bruce)
i will get the cause more on the ages and sex in the group (i think 3 were below 30years old and all males)
i prefer do canyons with girls so much better than young testosterone kids!!!!!!
so you wrong in this assumption was a big group

the leaders were just playing too much with the kids to pay attention to the anchor! that is what happened!

If you notice from my initial post the opinion that I referenced was that of the Hanksville SAR staff that I spoke with as well as others including individuals from the Meetup group. In their opinion, large group numbers "may have played a role".

[hesse15]

If you notice from my initial post the opinion that I referenced was that of the Hanksville SAR staff that I spoke with as well as others including individuals from the Meetup group. In their opinion, large group numbers "may have played a role".

Sar people just rescue the injured party and saw the other 28 people at the trailhead.

but we distributed in small indipendent groups over 2 differents canyons that share the same trailhead!
plus there was a colorado school group there divided in two groups! so could looks like there were 40people togheter, not the case!

hope he recover soon so we can do canyons again.
again only reason of accident was lack of common sense !!!!
nothing else to speculate!!

[hesse15]

The way it is written also makes it sound like it only applies to commercial, educational or scientific purposes.

so Ice if i understand correctly it is total inappropriate to quote that rule for PRIVATE CANYONEERING AND HIKING TRIP!!!!
could you second me on this,
so is the private website mentioned apparently giving WRONG information about REGULATIONS?
like the reference to 12 people in canyons.......will be interesting to see WHY they put such wrong information there......are they ever going to admit ?

[Iceaxe]

I don't know the correct ruling for private adventures wIth regards to the Dirty Devil. I do know commercial trips on BLM land have rules that don't apply to privateers.

My own personal opinion is someone is trying to stretch the 12 person limit to cover a group and area that is was really not meant to cover. I would like to see what section of the DD the rule actually applies too, I have a hunch it's only the river corridor and not the entire drainage (which would be a massive area)

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

My own personal opinion is someone is trying to stretch the 12 person limit to cover a group and area that is was really not meant to cover.
Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

I found it more interesting that page is the rule and regulation for the FULL Robber Roost area, and written like that not only they forgot to mention that 12 is ONLY for commercial/education research in RIVER activities IN the dirty devil horshoe corridor ( aka river bed), but some how they invented a canyons limit .
it is nice that BLM is more concerned about yelling and pooping but cannot find any reference "OFFICIAL " to bolts!
those are all REAL BLM regulations for that area:
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...ilBrochure.pdf
this is from Blm website <<Several guidebooks describe outstanding opportunities for hiking, backpacking, and canyoneering, and there are opportunities for commercial use. There are challenging canyoneering opportunities in the upper stretch of Larry Canyon. >>>
<<<The river segment is 9.5 miles in length, entirely within public lands administered by BLM. Human use includes dispersed recreational activity including hiking, canyoneering, sightseeing, photography>>>>
<<<<Robbers Roost is the most accessible of all the Dirty Devil side canyons, and is publicized as a destination hike in a number of guidebooks. Canyoneers have come to recognize that the upper ends of each of the Robbers Roost tributaries contain superb opportunities for technical slot canyoneering.>>>>>
<<<The river segment is 33 miles in length

[mzamp]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Bushes in general have very shallow roots. Be careful out there.

I too felt the size of the bush to be adequate, especially since it was only a 20ft drop into 6+ feet of water. I don

[penmartens]

Before this goes away, I would like to express some of my views gleaned from the few statements that I have read. It is obvious that the webbing for the anchor was worn and broke.
It looks to me like contributing causes were:
1) the dynamics of a large group
complacency
party atmosphere
compliance (not wanting to make waves)
diffusion of responsibility
2) the dynamimcs of sub-dividing a large group
all of the above
acquiescence to stronger leadership in forward groups
3) possible hot-dogging on rappel (unsubstaniated)
4) inexperienced rappelling style
skittering webbing across rock while getting on rope
5) penduluming to avoid water causing rubbing of webbing 60 feet higher
6) the 'ugly eye' syndrome
In first aid, if a person has a horrific wound, say an eyeball hanging down on their cheek, people can be more focused on that rather than mortal wounds such as an arterial bleed in the leg. I can't help but wonder if the stories from the night before (see meetup group's comments) about the missing bolt had people so worried about the failure of a pile of rocks that they didn't check the other components in the system.


Some time has been spent talking about what went 'wrong'. It would be very helpful to also talk about what went 'right'. What were the logistics after the accident? How the heck did you successfully get 30 people plus the CO group out of the canyon and back to the TH? Who stayed with the injured? What kind of 1st aid was given? What does SAR expect of people at an accident site? In canyon? At the TH?
What type of things were said at camp that night to help people debrief and move past the accident enough to canyon the next day?


Thanks for any answers given.


Penny

[rnelson]

Tragic - I hope he heals quick. A terrible reminder to take personal responsibilty to check rap rigging each time we rope up, no matter how many have gone before us... and if you SEE something, SAY something! (one of my new canyoneering mantras - thank you HomelandSecurity)

[hesse15]

Before this goes away, I would like to express some of my views gleaned from the few statements that I have read. It is obvious that the webbing for the anchor was worn and broke.
It looks to me like contributing causes were:
1) the dynamics of a large group
complacency
party atmosphere
compliance (not wanting to make waves)
diffusion of responsibility
2) the dynamimcs of sub-dividing a large group
all of the above
acquiescence to stronger leadership in forward groups
3) possible hot-dogging on rappel (unsubstaniated)
4) inexperienced rappelling style
skittering webbing across rock while getting on rope
5) penduluming to avoid water causing rubbing of webbing 60 feet higher
6) the 'ugly eye' syndrome
In first aid, if a person has a horrific wound, say an eyeball hanging down on their cheek, people can be more focused on that rather than mortal wounds such as an arterial bleed in the leg. I can't help but wonder if the stories from the night before (see meetup group's comments) about the missing bolt had people so worried about the failure of a pile of rocks that they didn't check the other components in the system.

Some time has been spent talking about what went 'wrong'. It would be very helpful to also talk about what went 'right'. What were the logistics after the accident? How the heck did you successfully get 30 people plus the CO group out of the canyon and back to the TH? Who stayed with the injured? What kind of 1st aid was given? What does SAR expect of people at an accident site? In canyon? At the TH?
What type of things were said at camp that night to help people debrief and move past the accident enough to canyon the next day?
Thanks for any answers given.

Penny

ok let see: the groups were indipendent from each other we moved fast so there was almost 2 hr distance between us and the rest of the groups! we met the CO guy on the trail back to the car.
I already disagree with the choice of the leaders in that group,but was not my trip so i took care of mine after warning the organizer profusely, but that is me always put safety first before the fun!
accident happened last rap so people were able to take food and clothing back to the 7 people that stay with the victim.
people were distributed over 2 forks so we collect everybody else
2 people spend the night on the rim helping SAR to go in and out, Rick made it back to camp at 1:30am after having to go up and down from the exit!
rappelling style: lets see that recently I am witnessing a lot of AUSSIE style or bunjie jumping rappellers?

Rick coordinated ,he went directly to the gas stations and collect the SARs, providing maps, details and do the ground support,he is the person to have around for "holy crap" situation!!!!!! both from life experience and very advance rescue training and practicing!!!!

was just too much fun for them, they just oversight the risks, glad he did not kill himself,but was not a surprise to me and Rick that happened.
Some people also if you tell them in the face they are unsafe and why,usually they just keep doing the same,
like smokers and cancer,you can tell a smoker that is dangerous but usually will not do any change or when finally they listen is usually too late and they will die in 6months anyway!!!!
aftermath: 3 kids were scared because "canyons are dangerous" and refused to do canyons, I went with Rick and we run slineade as i used to!!!!
other did hogs and blarney.
they mostly think was the fault of the webbing!!!!!
we had heavy time until the medic release that was not internal injury and no life at risk!
and the beer in camp start to flow that help!!!!

[canyoncaver]

Possible number 7 to add to penmartens' list?

7) Single strand of webbing over the lip.

I sometimes rig that way too, but it seems like having two strands to burn through might have saved the day on this one.


Here is one way to provide redundancy over a sharp lip with only a single long strand coming from a deadman or cairn.

Photo from Office Canyon:

[ratagonia]

they mostly think was the fault of the webbing!!!!!

we had heavy time until the medic release that was not internal injury and no life at risk!

1. of course, webbing has no moral culpability.

2. broken pelvis is a VERY serious injury, always considered life-threatening. People bleed out, and/or the Femoral arteries go right through that area. As in all broken bones, there are varying degrees of 'broken', but certainly an 80 foot ping pong calls for treatment as life-threatening.

Kudos to all that dealt successfully with this incident, under physically difficult conditions.

Tom

[hesse15]

1. of course, webbing has no moral culpability.

2. broken pelvis is a VERY serious injury, always considered life-threatening. People bleed out, and/or the Femoral arteries go right through that area. As in all broken bones, there are varying degrees of 'broken', but certainly an 80 foot ping pong calls for treatment as life-threatening.

Kudos to all that dealt successfully with this incident, under physically difficult conditions.

Tom

yep but when the medic (people with medical background that assess him in the slot) said he was going to ok we were very happy,when we were on the rim we did not know if he was going to make it for the SAR to evacuate him!
it was kind of stressful situation so when we find out he will be bruised up but ok,we drank and the mood rised a lot!!!!
,
i wrote "injury" instead of "bleeding"so the correct is "internal bleeding" SOMETIME.....I do not check exactly the words!!!

[penmartens]

Possible number 7 to add to penmartens' list?

7) Single strand of webbing over the lip.

I sometimes rig that way too, but it seems like having two strands to burn through might have saved the day on this one.


Here is one way to provide redundancy over a sharp lip with only a single long strand coming from a deadman or cairn.

Photo from Office Canyon:

This is a very good idea for the rappel in question. I bet the majority of people skitter either at the top getting on rope and/or at the bottom avoiding the water. I would like to see this method used in Angel Slpt also. The top 2 raps are particularly nasty hard starts with jagged edges.

[mcweyen]

Could somebody explain why webbing needs to be ran over the edge? Is it because people don't want their nice rope to go over an edge only or is it because it places less load on the anchor? If it does place less load on the anchor, couldn't the fact that people have to drop more before being on rappel place even more load on the anchor? Double webbing over a ledge seems like a no brainer if it truly needs to go over the edge.

[jman]

Could somebody explain why webbing needs to be ran over the edge? Is it because people don't want their nice rope to go over an edge only or is it because it places less load on the anchor? If it does place less load on the anchor, couldn't the fact that people have to drop more before being on rappel place even more load on the anchor? Double webbing over a ledge seems like a no brainer if it truly needs to go over the edge.

Factors go into with each rappel, such as no or very minimal rope groove and easiness of the rope pull. Extending the webbing anchor usually solves those issues. Many people wonder why a rappel is set up here or there, when a rappelling station looks easier from that location instead. Canyoneers place bolts or anchors usually with the rope pull in mind, and not necessarily with the awkward or scary starts in mind.

[Mountaineer]

Canyoneers place bolts or anchors usually with the rope pull in mind, and not necessarily with the awkward or scary starts in mind.

Yes, and remember you can add a courtesy rigging, for an easier start, for everyone except the last person down.

[Brian in SLC]

1. of course, webbing has no moral culpability.

Nope. But, folks who promote certain technques, remove bolted anchors, and, leave minimal single strands of webbing... Do they?

[ratagonia]

Nope. But, folks who promote certain technques, remove bolted anchors, and, leave minimal single strands of webbing... Do they?

Perhaps in the same theoretical sense that every person who has passed that point and NOT installed a sweet 2-glue-in bolt anchor is similarly culpable.

Even Mr. Cabe has similar culpability. He has been aware that a two-bolt anchor and perhaps a via-ferrata ladder were really needed for public safety at this location and yet, he has done nothing!

Or perhaps Mr. Thompson, who has traveled with various groups through this canyon on many occasions - but did he install redundant bolts and heavy chain going over the edge, plus a platform so people could set up easily? No - he failed in his duty to protect the public.

Even Mr. Toyota, a maker of stairs, while he has not been through this canyon, I hardly think that relieves him of his duty to build sturdy stairs at every downclimb or rappel...

Sure, everyone has SOME culpability, Brian. But the TRUE culpability is held by EACH of us when we go out into the wildlands and go down canyons. The moral culpability is in each person, in the choices they make. More culpability for the leaders of groups, who take beginners who are not in a position to be fully responsible for their own safety.

But really, Brian, the culpability is in the hands of the supposedly-experienced canyoneer who either did not check or did not successfully check the webbing before he swung over on it.

[Brian in SLC]

"But, your honor, he opened the "moral culpability" door."

"Proceed".

Ha ha.

Sure, everyone has SOME culpability, Brian. But the TRUE culpability is held by EACH of us when we go out into the wildlands and go down canyons. The moral culpability is in each person, in the choices they make. More culpability for the leaders of groups, who take beginners who are not in a position to be fully responsible for their own safety.

But really, Brian, the culpability is in the hands of the supposedly-experienced canyoneer who either did not check or did not successfully check the webbing before he swung over on it.

Well, you know, there's degrees of culpability. Cause and effect. I've never done Constrychnine, nor, was I aware of the anchor conditions in there. Only very dimly remember some dust up over the anchors in there, involving...you. Therefore, I don't think any of my actions, or, inactions, would be judged to be reckless, or, disregarding any risk, substantial and/or unjustifiable.

I say if you chopped an anchor, or, promote and/or left a single strand of webbing at that anchor location, then, you're "morally" culpable. If you purposely did these things, knowing that it added additional challenge, forcing a higher level of skill, and, therefore additional risk, then, your level of culpability bumps up a notch.

Reckless endangerment. "Recklessly engaging in conduct which places or may place another person in danger of death or serious bodily injury."

Culpability. Its not just in the mind of the beholder...

The prosecution is sleepy and therefore, needs to rest.