Accident in Constrychnine

[Absolute Gravity]

Oh man, you are so right. What was I thinking?

A bolted ladder would be so equal to that horrible rub mark on the wall.

Attachment 65661

Now my friends and family can feel safe ascending that wall without having to acquire the skills to properly climb the crack. Plus no more rub marks?! Sounds like a win-win.

Edit: Wow that crack looks super fun!

[ratagonia]

I'm somewhat confused by this. What impact problems did bolting the class 2 approach to Keyhole resolve? Or the bolting of some of the easy downclimbs in Mystery (which are already in the watercourse)?

The approach slab in Keyhole was bolted to give a conspicuous anchor to all those parties that go off and put slings around a tree to rappel into Keyhole. I have removed 3 sets of slings that people had rapped in in that area. The bolt, if used, puts the wear and tear on the same place as most people downclimb, and keeps them from wandering off in the woods.

The downclimbs in Mystery were bolted to lead people to the downclimbs, so they would not create trails through the woods for each of these little obstacles. Previously we had blocked off the trails, but this did not prove effective.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Now my friends and family can feel safe ascending that wall without having to acquire the skills to properly climb the crack. Plus no more rub marks?! Sounds like a win-win.

Edit: Wow that crack looks super fun!

That's right! And, when you get to the top, you can continue with your lack of skills by doing the very activity that is the essence of canyoneering: rappelling!

Ha ha.

Yeah, the crack is fun. Haven't climbed it since the late 80's and have heard it's actually gotten a tad wider at the crux, which, used to be tight hands for most fellers, perfect for most chickas. Purportedly easier.

Ahhh...the good ol' bolt debate. All is well with the world...

[Brian in SLC]

Regarding the impact of bolts... I think a good comparison would be if someone wasn't comfortable climbing Incredible Hand Crack on gear, so that person installed bolts and turned it into a sport route. This would not be be okay and those bolts would be gone immediately.

Yep. Pretty good comparison. I know folks who prefer cams for cracks to sports climbs. At Indian Creek, you can keep essentially a top rope above you by pushing an overhead cam with the rope clipped to it. To some, they have control of that situation better than if someone predetermines pre set protection for them. Its funny but that's a good comparison to canyons too. Probably more the issue than anything. Folks prefer to figure it out, rather than clip and go, or, the essense of that feeling versus the "dumbing down" aspect of existing fixed anchors. Depends what you get your kicks doing, I suppose.

Bolted cracks in Europe, especially in some areas in Italy, are going through similar growing pains. In much poorer areas, where the average person/climber can't afford cams/gear, the issue is justified that tradition climbing gear is expensive (some China climbing comes to mind, etc).

Coming soon to a canyon near you? Hopefully not:

[JennyMae]

I am editing this post. I'm asked "Reason for Editing:' Answer: No good will come of it.

[reflection]

Playing with safety and tossing history (somewhat aside). The rudimentary partisan will pause and toss the term "bolt war" jargon "at" an issue, that deserves to be parsed as it reveals so much about the players current dilemma.

Zion National Park - long ago - a bolt free, and then mostly bolt free and then walla (rabbits?) a ubiquitous bolt haven. First time we did Left Fork/Subway in Zion, there were NO bolts in that corridor, and for a couple of years we even stayed over nite in that watery canyon (legal). And then two bolts showed up on the "final" sloped handline into the formal Subway, and then a single and then a double bolt at Keyhole falls. And then for years, thousands through that corridor, using handlines and then last year, two more bolts atop the boulder and another bolt on the N side of the near final Subway corridor. And once upon a time there were no bolts in Orderville, Spry or even Pine Creek. Myself and others did them all with no bolts. And that was the mantra that park officials espoused...keep it mostly bolt free. But then on the corners of Zion, commercial guiding crept in and bolts went in, more visitors and more bolts and then guide books, internet sites and a near explosion of iron. Did it matter that many said solidly, leave it bolt free. And just who and what christened Zion as an OK to bolt canyoneering park? The lord of the rap rings I suppose.

The Lords have this all figured out & wish to control the dimension of practice in this or that arena? National Parks are one corridor, BLM, National Recreation Areas, Forest Service, private land, another. Irony; one isolated bolt, here, there, is that an explosion? If it were disclosed, the public would know about bolts in many corridors, where some scream, this is a bolt free zone.

North Wash, Robbers Roost. Been in so many of those canyons so many times, and often with experienced climbers. Their practice, style and manner at rap statiions is most often stated in "redundancy" and often they would ask for or set up at least two sets of rigged webbing systems (if possible) with one quick link or ring. Others though would come along, cut their system up and announce that one single looped tubular piece of webbing would suffice. The Lords and their control. Didn't matter that some of these chaps or ladies had been climbing for decades or more, their practice was "ignorant and out of line" with canyoneering.

So to you wise odes of North Wash and Poison Springs. At the last rap in K-9 I propose there never be more than a single looped strand of one inch tubular webbing that spills over that drop. And the minute anyone adds another strand, cut it out and take it out as booty. And if by chance the webbing wears - after 100 or 200 visitors over a couple of weeks - and someone stumbles and tumbles to their peril, I guess the easy answer is that the webbing merely be reset and replaced again. No need for parsing.(and pass on the SAR too) And I wonder how long until a good body stumbles into N Fork (Zion) on a quiet day and pulls the bolts from that corridor so that it can breath free and be replaced by "natural links." And the rest of the "bothersome rabbit snares" in the park, someone I suppose should go after those too?

And someone please, in the background, start that "often played" tune...don't go into a canyon beyond your ability, and leave it free to for others to enjoy (with natural anchors). Oops, this discordant music didn't/doesn't play too well in Zion, and oops, what happens when the legions of scouts, youth groups, Canyoneering 101 clubs and families invade the not so wild corridors of North Wash and Poison Springs? We guess, they be led into natural anchor and one line of webbing land? And the Lords of the Rap Rings took them by the hand (with good intentions of course). And the soft line hand of the "Lord(s)" spoke and it was so.

[Scott P]

I am editing this post. I'm asked "Reason for Editing:' Answer: No good will come of it.

I actually enjoyed your post.

[Brian in SLC]

I am editing this post. I'm asked "Reason for Editing:' Answer: No good will come of it.

Ha ha. How's that, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

Shane's a plagerizer! Was hoping he'd respond...

Good to "see" Stevee B on here, even if it was a not attributed quote...

[Absolute Gravity]

...And the Lords of the Rap Rings..

Uh, there can be only one, no?

*Sorry, couldn't resist the low hanging fruit.

[Iceaxe]

Shane's a plagerizer! Was hoping he'd respond...

"The problem with internet news, quotes and statistics is that often times, they're wrongfully believed to be real." - Abraham Lincoln

If this forum was a "Dexter" episode, I'm pretty certain I'd end up on a table, wrapped in plastic.

[Slot Machine]

Been in so many of those canyons so many times, and often with experienced climbers. Their practice, style and manner at rap statiions is most often stated in "redundancy" and often they would ask for or set up at least two sets of rigged webbing systems (if possible) with one quick link or ring.

Steve,

Great posts! I particularly enjoyed your observations from canyoneering in Zion over the years. Thanks for sharing.

I think that the above solution is a 'clean' and intelligent compromise for Constrychnine. Two long pieces of webbing, from one natural anchor, draped over the edge. No bolts and minimal risk. Seems like there is a photo floating around of the drop in question, rigged this way. From one of Tom's outings? I can't recall....

Bob

[Absolute Gravity]

I'm pretty certain I'd end up on a table, wrapped in plastic.

I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be your first time

[JennyMae]

Ha ha. How's that, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

Shane's a plagerizer! Was hoping he'd respond...

Good to "see" Stevee B on here, even if it was a not attributed quote...

See my post #119. I fixed it for Shane. It frightened me to think of him on a table wrapped in plastic. It took me a while but it's all good. Thanks Brian and thank you, Scott P. for your kindness.

'Going back under now. You all play fair and be safe, OK?

Jenny West

[hank moon]

nothing else was broken, except maybe the helmet, which took a good whack at impact, according to the members of his group.

If the helmet is cracked, took a good whack! Might be fun to add the tale to this:

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/vert...t-stories-edge

[hesse15]

From a legal standpoint, it is always illegal to place a bolt there.
From a legal standpoint, it is illegal to place new bolted stations, but legal to replace existing ones when in poor condition.
.

Could you please posted the link to validate your point?or you are just made that up?

probably if people start to travel a little more will learn how canyons are done in the rest of the world!
agree that a piece of stainless steel is more natural than piles of webbing and resulting permanent grooves!!!

and as climbing if you want to skip the bolts just do it,

by the way nobody seems to care about Powell that people are constantly trans passing Indian territory to do canyons without asking the rightful owner for permission?
by the way those are the same private individuals that want to put rules for the rest of us

[Scott P]

Originally Posted by Scott P
From a legal standpoint, it is always illegal to place a bolt there.
From a legal standpoint, it is illegal to place new bolted stations, but legal to replace existing ones when in poor condition.
.



Could you please posted the link to validate your point?or you are just made that up?

Sure. Here are the exact wordings with all the links directly from the National Park websites:

Capitol Reef National Park:

RESTRICTIONS AND CONCERNS
Capitol Reef National Park is a clean climbing area. Minimum impact techniques that don't destroy the rock or leave a visual trail are encouraged. The use of white chalk is prohibited. Climbers using chalk must use chalk which closely matches the color of the surrounding rock. The use of power drills is also prohibited. Bolts may only be used to replace existing unsafe bolts. Where it is necessary to leave or replace existing webbing, the webbing should closely match the color of the surrounding rock. Ropes may not be left in place unattended for more than 24 hours, and these ropes must be out of reach from the ground or other points accessible without technical climbing.

http://www.nps.gov/care/planyourvisit/rockclimbing.htm

Arches National Park:

No new permanent climbing hardware may be installed in any fixed location. If an existing bolt or other hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced. This will limit all climbing to existing routes or new routes not requiring placement of fixed anchors.

http://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/climbing.htm

Canyonlands National Park:

No new climbing hardware may be left in a fixed location; however, if a hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced.

http://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/climbing.htm

Glen Canyon National Recreation Area:

Leaving gear and equipment used in connection with climbing activities unattended. The gear and equipment shall be removed by the participants before departing the area. This includes but is not limited to pitons, bolts, and all other climbing aids.

Apparently, there is an exception for the Orange Cliffs Unit since it is managed by Canyonlands even though part of the GCNRA. In that case you can replace an existing bolt, but not add a new ones. In all the rest of the Glen Canyon National Recreation area, no bolts are allowed, old or new.

(PDF only; click on link)

http://www.nps.gov/glca/parkmgmt/upl...Compendium.pdf

Of course I didn't make the rules, but just eluded to them earlier because someone asked.

[hesse15]

Sure. Here are the exact wordings with all the links directly from the National Park websites:

Capitol Reef National Park:

. Bolts may only be used to replace existing unsafe bolts.
http://www.nps.gov/care/planyourvisit/rockclimbing.htm
Arches National Park:
No new permanent climbing hardware may be installed in any fixed location. If an existing bolt or other hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced.
http://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/climbing.htm
Canyonlands National Park:
No new climbing hardware may be left in a fixed location; however, if a hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced.
http://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/climbing.htm
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area:
Leaving gear and equipment used in connection with climbing activities unattended. The gear and equipment shall be removed by the participants before departing the area. This includes but is not limited to pitons, bolts, and all other climbing aids.
Apparently, there is an exception for the Orange Cliffs Unit since it is managed by Canyonlands even though part of the GCNRA. In that case you can replace an existing bolt, but not add a new ones. In all the rest of the Glen Canyon National Recreation area, no bolts are allowed, old or new.
http://www.nps.gov/glca/parkmgmt/upl...Compendium.pdf

Scott thank you,
but sounds like ONLY int the BOUNDARIES of the national parks
so any BLM area is not regulated!!!
including North wash, swell robber roost and surrounding capitol reef including pandora!!!!
if glue in bolts were not that expensive those are much harder to be removed!!!
AM I correct?

[Scott P]

but sounds like ONLY int the BOUNDARIES of the national parks

Those were the areas that were asked about and that I was referring to. The BLM areas also have rules, but it depends on which area you are in.

so any BLM area is not regulated!!!

Some BLM areas are, but many are not. It isn't allowed in many Special Recreation Areas or in any Wilderness Study Areas, for example:

Rock climbing and caving are allowed as long as these activities meet the non-impairment criteria. The placement of permanent fixed anchors (e.g., bolts) or artificial holds is not allowed unless it meets one of the exceptions to the non-impairment standard, e.g. for emergencies, such as search and rescue operations.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...e.dat/6330.pdfThe monuments managed by the BLM mention canyoneering specifically as well, but old bolts placed before 1976 are allowed to remain (though I don't know how many 37+ year old bolts should be trusted!):

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana][I]The majority of areas suitable for climbing and canyoneering in the Monument are located within Wilderness Study Areas. Since wilderness preservation is part of BLM

[hesse15]

Tnuments managed by the BLM mention canyoneering specifically as well, but old bolts placed before 1976 are allowed to remain (though I don't know how many 37+ year old bolts should be trusted!):
.

mhh so better to bolt everything in any unregulated area before they change idea so they will be " grandfather in"?

[reflection]

That Bruce rebounds and heals. That is the (present) most compelling concern from this corner. Those that promote & lead the "lemmings" into these canyons (I'm guilty to some small degree) can pick and choose their guidance and direction - be it laudatory or indifferent. The active players, engaged or detached in the process, what shall they do? If I lead a youth crew through there, I trust I (& others) have the respect for the resource (and beauty) of the place and put safety as a paramount concern. Those that are passive in their future approaches may be rolling the dice - again and again.

And the side show of these dauting escapades - the drama, the veiled curtains, the nuance and context never talked about, probed or poked. A bolt here, here, but not there. And then the partisan views, when one or another is so right and correct and has a seeming cold steady contempt for even a mimimum threshold of tolerance and mutual respect. A message I suppose re how some carry about in "civil society" (no, universe, that's which we each abide in). Wild corridors, keeping them natural, yes hallelujah. Busy trade canyons promoted to the hilt with all shapes, sizes and ages of travelers. Is it reasonable to tender a "possible" alternative to the present, which recently failed? We pick our grave concerns in life. And some active in the "engineering" side of canyoneering offer a bountiful display of marvelous tools so we can travel in canyons. Thank you to those that invent and "produce.

And speaking of Humpty Dumpty, Bruce is not the only one that had a recent tumble and "fall". Bruce cracked his helmet and pelivs. Another in our group (last week) had his chest cracked open, a 90 percent blockage in one ventricle, and then open heart surgery. This person lodged a most detailed report re Bruce's accident, and now he is lying in cardiac critical care.

Let's see, be happy, be safe, be kind.....how many ways can those words be bent and stretched? How to say thank you, or please, how to listen intently as well as to civily speak. The sign of a great person - one that makes others feel great? None of this has anything to do with canyoneering, or life, or maybe it does. Young kids in canyons - the lesson - that they return safely home. Adults in canyons - the lesson - I'm sometimes lost in the dark. Once upon a time, the Wow factor of pristine canyons...and then modern times, a good day then maybe not such a good day in the canyons. "When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long back at you."