Subway

[Micklethwaites]

We have a small group of us, maybe 2-4, that would like to make the
Subway trek, probably top to bottom. We range in age from 30-60. We are
all backpackers, so are relatively fit, but do not repel. Also being
from the Chandler/Mesa area in Arizona, we are not familiar with the
Subway and its terrain.

I made this post on a Zion Yahoo group. I was told it might be helpful
to make a post here, so here I am! I'm glad to have found this forum.
The photos of all the canyons make me want to quit my job!

I have known of the Subway for many years now, but have not had the
opportunity to go north. We are making time to do this in August. I am
at the beginning stage of planning and I'm sure I've got a lot to
learn.

What I do know:


1. Permits must be obtained and can be difficult to come by

2. Paid guides are not permitted in the National Park

3. Take repelling lessons before attempting this hike

4. The best route is top to bottom


What I'm looking for:


1. How do we handle vehicles

2. Does one stay in a hotel or do we camp

3. It appears to be approximately 9 miles, how much time should we allot

4. Someone who might be interested in going with us

5. Suggestions on attire for August


I'm sure I will have more questions as I research. Any help/advice that
might be offered would be greatly appreciated. We are VERY excited to
experience the Subway!


Thanks!


Eva

[Iceaxe]

This will answer some of your questions like clothing, time, shuttles....

Zion Subway Info


One of the easiest way to find someone with experinace to go with you and provide half the shuttle is to pull 2 extra permits in the lottery. And then post here you have two extra permits and are looking for someone to provide half the shuttle that has done the route before.

[Brian in SLC]

Any help/advice that
might be offered would be greatly appreciated.

Repel: what Iceaxe does after a few days of canyoning sans deodorant.

Rappel: slidin' down a rope.

Score two extra permits and someone mightl join up who's saavy. Offer space in a hotel room and its just about gar-un-teed. Them rooms are spendy in prime time. Most folks camp just due to cost. Hurricane (pronounced "hur-kin") is a bit less spendy if you have to stay indoors.

Get a darn early start and if you're reasonably fit and don't get lost, you're back to the car early. If not, you might make it in the daylight. Plan on it being a fairly full day.

Pretty spot on beta here:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...zion-top-down/

[Deathcricket]

Rapelling lessons aren't a bad idea. But most people can handline the one slope in Subway. It's a 25ish foot rock face, the last 3-4 feet are the steepest. August will be hot hot hot, so bring lots of water and be sure to soak well before the exit scramble, it's probably the most brutal part of the entire day and what I would be most concerned about (heatstroke).



Skip to 5 mins in...

[Scott P]

August will be hot hot hot.

Also flash flood season. August is when flash floods peak. Many days in August will still be dry, but do be aware of this.

[Slot Machine]

What I'm looking for:

1. How do we handle vehicles
2. Does one stay in a hotel or do we camp
3. It appears to be approximately 9 miles, how much time should we allot
4. Someone who might be interested in going with us
5. Suggestions on attire for August

Eva

Hello Eva, welcome to Bogley!

1. Park one car at the bottom trailhead (Northgate Peaks) then have everyone pack into a second car and shuttle to the top trailhead (Wildcat).

2. Stay in a hotel in Hurricane or Springdale. I'd bet you will enjoy a soak in a hot tub at the end of your day. You could camp instead, I just prefer beer and hot tubs after long hikes.

3. Allow ALL DAY, 12 HOURS. You might move faster, but you might not. I've done The Subway in 6 hours and also been with a group that took 11 hours. Get your permits the night before the hike. Get to the top trailhead EARLY, 7am. Then you can move at a reasonable pace, take lots of photos, and get back to your cars before dark.

4. You won't have trouble finding people to fill your group on Bogley.

5. Wear all synthetic clothing, so it will dry quickly. Move quickly through the water sections and don't worry about wetsuits. August is so hot you won't need them. Don't try to keep any of your packs dry, because you will have to swim through a couple of short sections with them. I've seen groups try to zipline packs over puddles. Don't waste your time, just jump on in!

Bring drybags to keep the stuff inside your packs dry. I recommend these:

http://www.austinkayak.com/products/...0-Dry-Bag.html

Remember, drybags are tough, drysacks are wimpy. Get a drybag.

Bob

[Scott P]

Wear all synthetic clothing, so it will dry quickly.

Personal preference I guess, but in summer I'd go the opposite. I want clothes to stay damp for the hot hike out. While swimming, synthetic vs other material won't matter that much, but for the hike out in summer, wet or damp is best. If you don't have any tolerance to cold, perhaps bring a dry shirt in a bag, but in summer I'd take something that will stay wet/damp for the hike out. This is true for some of the other summer canyons as well.

[Slot Machine]

...but in summer I'd go the opposite. I want clothes to stay damp for the hot hike out.

Good point Scott. However there are ample opportunities to get wet and cool off on the hike out.

But for a new (i.e slow) groups, getting dry quickly when heading through the wet sections is key to staying warm, and having fun. Sometimes I've had to wait for other groups while standing in the shade, soaking wet. I really enjoyed wearing a quickdry shirt in those spots. Or the no shirt in those spots.

You could always drybag your cotton shirt until the end of the hike. There's more than one way to skin that cat.

[joeb]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the most important item to pack - the ice chest full of cold beers and soda that you leave in the car at the bottom trailhead!!! You will thank me later for this!

As far as permits go, I have been successful getting walk up permits for subway mid-week in summer (forget the weekends) - just get to the backcountry office early. If you are the type to get easily lost then I recommend pulling the GPS coordinates & beta from Blu Gnome http://www.bluugnome.com/default.aspx or one of the many other fine canyoneering sites you can find on the web

[deathtointernet]

3. Allow ALL DAY, 12 HOURS. You might move faster, but you might not. I've done The Subway in 6 hours and also been with a group that took 11 hours. Get your permits the night before the hike. Get to the top trailhead EARLY, 7am. Then you can move at a reasonable pace, take lots of photos, and get back to your cars before dark.

x2 This is probably the biggest mistake I see people make in the Subway, they take a group of people down with a noon start because they hate mornings and then find themselves hoping they remembered to bring headlamps. The exit hike is not the sort of thing that is fun in the dark, it involves a lot of back-and-forth in the stream and working around boulders, plus you'd hate to miss the start of the trail up to the parking area.

The technical challenges of the canyon are few but don't underestimate how much even simple obstacles can slow an inexperienced group down. And of course last year we all saw how bad luck and inexperience can turn the Subway into a dangerous place.

My personal preference is to always have an extra layer to throw on, I have a merino wool shirt I like for canyons. Your tolerance may vary, but I find that even in August after swimming the pools and the bowling ball corridor I am *cold*

Above all else, enjoy yourself!

[Micklethwaites]

Thank you all for the awesome insight! Thank you also Brian for the lesson in grammar. I thought I was spelling that wrong, but it was late and it didn't go any further than a thought.

We wondered how wet we would get so that question has also been answered. We will definitely check into a drybag. Being from Arizona we are very familiar with heat and exhaustion. I'm sure our plan would be to hit the trailhead as early as daybreak will allow. We'll also carry plenty of water and the goods to turn nasty water into potable water. Good tips on the wool. A lot of our gear for backpacking is merino wool, so we're set there.

Question....we have the option of going in a group of 5 or a group of 10. Since permits are hard to come by, is it more likely to get permits for 5? I have found out two of our guys have rappelling experience, so we may not need that extra person(s) with us. My husband and I will still take lessons on this side just to be 100% certain we are set. I read about the unfortunate accident last year and would like to avoid any further accidents with our group.

Thanks again for the posts and links. We certainly appreciate the help!

Eva

[Slot Machine]

Question....we have the option of going in a group of 5 or a group of 10. Since permits are hard to come by, is it more likely to get permits for 5?

If you are applying through the lottery, then your group will have the same odds as the other groups, no matter their size. I think...

Hypothetically, if the lottery is running and 55 out of 60 spots are filled, then do your chances go up? Not sure, you could call the Zion backcountry desk and find out.

But why bother? Since so many people are applying this year, the question is academic. Effectively your chances are the same.

[JanetAbruzzi]

Well, it turns out that there are miles to go.

[Iceaxe]

I have nothing to back this up but experience..... and my experience is smaller groups have better odds or at least I get more of my requests when applying in smaller numbers.

My reasoning is when fillling in the last say 6 spots any request for more then 6 permits is eliminated. This seems particularly true of routes with low permit levels.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

Oh math!! Schweet! ok ok let's do some analysis...

To come up with some numbers we shall have to extrapolate.

Ok so just taking the most recent poll we have an average group size of 6 people (202/34). We divide 6 people by the 60 available and we get 10 permits available. 10 permits/spots avail we get a 29% (10/34) chance of getting a permit. Yeah? So bending these rules slightly I would estimate a smaller group get's 3% bonus for getting picked and a larger group get a 3% disadvantage. And completely pulling these numbers out my azz probably.

If we look at the slowest weekend we get a group size of 8 (71/10) meaning there are 7 permits available, with a 77% (7/9) chance of securing a permit.

Edit: Err wait! Mon 7/8 looks better odds.... 4 person per group makes almost 15 permits meaning a 100% chance to get them!

[mzamp]

It's been a long time since my stat class: BUT...if you have 34 entries and 9 entries are drawn (based on your calculation of 55/6), doesn't that mean you have a 26% chance of securing a permit not counting being eliminated once there are only 4 spots left and you have 6 in your group?????

All I know is MATH is hard, Canyoneering is EASY

[Deathcricket]

yeah I divided by the 200 people not the # of permits, whoops, but I did catch my error before your edit, hehe. Also the last entry is not the most favorable, the 2nd to last is because of # of people. Also edited correct (I think). Math is hard haha. Also is it 60 people total or 55? I don't even know, but that would skew the data quite a bit.

Edit: it's 60 not 55 per day, edited again!

[joeb]

Yes the lottery is a long shot no matter how you measure it - however, I have had great luck with getting a permit mid-week with a small group. If you don't get an advance lottery permit, I would pull a permit for Orderville canyon which is another wonderful canyon that flows into the narrows with only a couple basic technical spots in case you get completely skunked on Subway.