FiddleStick finally available

[ratagonia]

Why bother?

I've been told (by friendly experts that love the Fiddlestick) that normally everyone raps from a meat anchor, except for the last person, who gets the rare and awesome opportunity to be a stuntman.

Rarely. Not really how it is done. Sometimes with a big crowd, if the FiddleStick anchor takes a while to set up, people are meat-anchored down, but usually everyone raps off the same anchor.

Tom

[hesse15]

probably what he means is that until the last men down you keep an eye on the fiddle and just in case you backed up the fiddle so does not release if accidentally somebody pull the little release cord!!
but i could be wrong!!!! (NOOOOOOO!!!!)

Rarely. but usually everyone raps off the same anchor.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

I don't need to get hurt or killed first to comment on it, now, do I?

Yeah, I own one.

[Iceaxe]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

I played around extensively with the system. And unless your design or material is magically and vastly superior to the dozens of different combinations I've seen used I'll stick with my original assessment that the general concept is flawed and dangerous.

The knowledge of the fiddlestix and how it works is one of those things that is nice to know, but not something I'd consider using except in an emergency.

But what the hell do I know, I just keep remembeing back to when macreme knots were all the rage.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[gootwan]

Tom,
Umm, why isn't there a hole in each end of the fiddlestick so you can secure it with a canyon quickdraw and prevent it from ever slipping out of the stone knot? last man down has to remove the quickdraw, but at least they got to watch how the fiddlestick interacts with the rocks/environment while someone is rapping.

Good idea. Looks easy enough to drill your own hole on the other side to fit an Attache.

[hank moon]

Yeah, I own one.

Not to worry Beady, your 'gear ho' cred is still good 'round here :)

[Brian in SLC]

Not to worry Beady, your 'gear ho' cred is still good 'round here :)

Whew! 'Preciate ya!

Can't help but think there has to be a better mouse trap...

Messing around, here's a couple of whacky options (kids, don't try this at home or in the field!):

You know how a lot of belay/rappel devices have a guide mode? Its a sort of progress capture. Here's the Kong Ghost:



Yank on the pull cord...defeats the progress capture:



Then there's a clove hitch on a Verm Hook:



Yank on pull cord, and, it tips the Verm hook so the clove hitch slides off:



None of the risk of using the "releasable" systems is worth your life, or, the two bucks worth of webbing you'd have to leave.

I'm all for innovation and "ghosting", but...there's a diminishing return with the equipment and/or techniques used are themselves inherently dangerous...

[Exergy]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

Tom

Seriously??? The original post comes across as a sales pitch. Maybe it's the title that threw me off, or the multiple paragraphs touting the benefits, or the bold print advertising it for sale, or the copy/paste from the product page. Ok, whatever. Perhaps I'm just bothered that you suggest these guys start their own post [so as not to detract from the sales pitch perhaps?]

If the true purpose of the thread is for non-users to pontificate the dangers, what better way than to draw from the experience of others. Some valid concerns have been raised such as what happens if the rappeller steps on a ledge and unweights the rope -- didn't see that one on the product page. These are the types of concerns that need to be published so the user can become familiar with the hazards. Heck, these questions are really a favor for Imlay that would be important to include in a product manual if it has one.

My pontification: personal preference is for a DIY release system because I'd at least test it several times in low-risk situations prior to actual use. Then I'd be somewhat familiar with the limitations. Any peice of DIY equipment automatically gets more respect. As soon as a ICG sticker is slapped on it and I can throw it in the "cart" people assume it's been developed to be safe for the "average user" who of course feels they have "advanced capabilities". I think it'll result in a senseless loss of life and then any profit will be gone in a puff of smoke. Better to advertise bolts and drills.

Other pontifications/questions/concerns I have:

• Climbing equipment made of plastic is unheard of when the consequence of a single-point failure is death
• Has accelerated environmental testing has been performed on the finished product, the product page states it has been in development for two years only, what is the disposal life for the rated load when exposed to a canyoneering environment
• How is one to inspect for cracks; visual or other NDI techniques; plastics can have hairline fractures which are invisible to the naked eye
• The fiddle stick folds and breaks in the stone knot at about 1200 lbs; I assume this is for a pristine specimen; what load does the fiddlestick fail at with the largest visually-undetectable (missed) crack in the knot
• What is the temperature range for the rated load

[JennyMae]

Why bother?

I've been told (by friendly experts that love the Fiddlestick) that normally everyone raps from a meat anchor, except for the last person, who gets the rare and awesome opportunity to be a stuntman.

Bob,
With my tongue deeply embedded in my cheek, my "demonstration" of the Fiddlestick you refer to was truly a playful jest aimed at our sceptical friend, Scott. Recall that I rigged it in a tiny breakable arch and added every joking gesture that I could toss in. I would love to show it in a serious anchor situation to offer you a true test to judge. Indeed I am a lover of the Fiddlestick. I am often the last person down the rappel as I have confidence in my method of setting it up to ensure my safe passage and I offer a lighter weight load on the systems. Honestly, I love my life and I really hate to be afraid. I do not feel that I'm being a stunt(wo)man at all. That "rare and awesome opportunity" has come my way in the test stages; off my deck, in Tom's workroom, in numerous tests and in the many variations that have led to the latest versions of Aguanchor, Sandtrap and Fiddlestick. To further clarify your comment, my friend, more often the Fiddlestick is backed up by various methods (which have been shown/explained in other threads) rather than setting up a meat anchor for all but the last person.
BTW, after a week of careful evaluation, Scott lost his scepticism and converted to the sense and safety in these anchor systems.

It was wonderful romping through a few canyons with you and yours.
Jenny

[hank moon]

Other pontifications/questions/concerns I have:

• Climbing equipment made of plastic is unheard of when the consequence of a single-point failure is death

Well, I'll start by pointing out that all climbing ropes fall into this category...



But I digress...

I would like to see testing to address some of your other concerns as well. My understanding is that at least some of that is underway.

[Slot Machine]

I would love to show it in a serious anchor situation to offer you a true test to judge. Indeed I am a lover of the Fiddlestick.

I would like this too since we are still open to learning more. From what I've observed, it seems like a very dangerous tool. It seems that at any given rappel there will always be a safer anchoring option. Maybe not a cleaner option, but safer. From what I can tell, the failure rate on the Fiddlestick MUST be higher than other anchoring methods. If it can just fall out, like it did with Ram, then I will never ever use it.

I do not feel that I'm being a stunt(wo)man at all.

My use of the word 'stuntman', is of course, a joke. If Tom gets to overstate things (pontificating), then I do too. I'm simply playing a little with Tom.

Scott lost his skepticism and converted to the sense and safety in these anchor systems.

No two anchors carry equal amounts of risk, so lumping them all together as 'safe' misrepresents each individual product. The margin for error on the SandTrap is wide (i.e. you can load a lot of sand, or a moderate amount of sand, and it will still work.) I know very little about the WaterTrap; but think it has the potential to be a good anchor, and that it will also have a large margin for error.

Back to my original point, the margin for error on the Fiddlestick is zero (i.e. either it works, or it doesn't). I don't worry about you Jenny, because you are very highly skilled. However, when we are talking about my clumsy ass, then I can easily see myself getting killed with such a tool, because I am clumsy, because I'm not a light rappeller, and because I don't watch the anchor once I commit to a rappel. Do I represent the average person that would buy a Fiddlestick? Perhaps.

For you and Tom to use it is one thing, for it to be sold as a commercial product is a whole 'nother issue. I think @Exergy made several very good points concerning the standard for commercial sale.

It was wonderful romping through a few canyons with you and yours.

^^ This we totally agree on! ^^ We can't wait for our next chance to get together. You are a wonderful teacher, but you and Steph need to work on your pothole escape techniques.

[2065toyota]

"For you and Tom to use it is one thing, for it to be sold as a commercial product is a whole 'nother issue. I think @Exergy made several very good points concerning the standard for commercial sale."

Could this not be the case for every piece of equipment used. Heck, even a figure 8 wont save you life if you let go of the rope

[Brian in SLC]

Could this not be the case for every piece of equipment used. Heck, even a figure 8 wont save you life if you let go of the rope

Not even a reasonable comparison. You got "user error" versus "inherently dangerous".

Ever seen ANY piece of climbing and/or rappelling and/or canyoneering equipment commercially sold with the following in its product literature?:

Even when used properly, it has the possibility of failing, resulting in severe injury or death, or being stranded in a canyon with your ropes hopelessly stuck.

I wonder how many retailers will carry it? The smart ones won't touch it.

[ilipichicuma]

Just thought I'd weigh in here (again). My friends and I have tested the issue of pulling the fiddlestick out of the knot while the rope is weighted. We found that with weight on the rope, it was almost impossible to pull the fiddlestick out (mine is made of of 1/2 inch PVC). That was one of the first things we tested in my garage. Of course, we keep an eye on it, but I'll do that with a deadman as well. I haven't found it to be inherently dangerous or anything.

[2065toyota]

Warning Labels

Manufacturers of consumer products have to be liberal with the warning labels these days, lest they get sued. But for these, it's hard to know whether the company is being outright stupid or if they're simply targeting the most brain dead dumb among us.

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover." -- On a pair of shin guards made for bicyclists.
"Do not use while sleeping." -- On a hair dryer.
"Do not use while sleeping or unconscious." -- On a hand-held massaging device.
"Do not place this product into any electronic equipment." -- On the case of a chocolate CD in a gift basket.
"Caution: Shoots rubber bands." -- On a product called "Rubber Band Shooter."

[Brian in SLC]

Of course, we keep an eye on it, but I'll do that with a deadman as well.

Gallows humor...sorry...I got a chuckle out of that.

Be careful out there kids...

[ratagonia]

Seriously???

I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Just curious..... how do you know what the critics have or have not tried in the field? Or are you just guessing and grandstanding?


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...l=1#post530851

Making a really great video of swinging the arch has had consequences. One of those consequences is that people less prepared and less savvy will do the same thing, but do it poorly, resulting in damage to the arch, and to themselves.

Just as I have responsibility for the rope grooves and trails on the sandpile in Spry Canyon, because I am the original publicist for that specific canyon.

Tom

You know.... If you take this quote from the Corona Arch thread and apply it to this thread.... Some interesting conclusions can be derived using simple extrapolation. This thread can then be concluded I think, and bumped again when the 1st accident occurs.

[2065toyota]

You know.... If you take this quote from the Corona Arch thread and apply it to this thread.... Some interesting conclusions can be derived using simple extrapolation. This thread can then be concluded I think, and bumped again when the 1st accident occurs.

I see your point a little Jake, but no matter how the story plays out which is almost always the case, it will be user error that caused it. No different than trying to blame and 'Assault Rifle' for shooting somebody. Hopefully nothing ever comes of your predictions because as we know there has already been too many. Let's all try to do a better job of double checking anchors and making sure everybody sets their devices up correctly.