Using a BD ATC-XP for rappelling

[ratagonia]

I have a new Tech Tip up about using the ATC-XP.


http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...or-rappelling/


Enjoy.


Tom

[jman]

Nice! I like it. That's a good tech tip. I'm glad you are doing more of these.

This is on our LONG list of how-to vids for our buddy Jeff Guest.

[Slot Machine]

I have a new Tech Tip up about using the ATC-XP.

Tom

Nice page! I particularly like how you conveyed the up-to-down vs up-to-up setups. I learned a little something there.

Discovering the two-biner ATC setup was HUGE in my progression as a canyoneer. I now have much better control and no more death grip.

Keep up the good work Tom!

[WorkBad]

Nice page! I particularly like how you conveyed the up-to-down vs up-to-up setups. I learned a little something there.

Slot Machine, could you explain what you learned. I see two different setups but I don't understand how one goes up-to-down and one that goes up-to-up.

Thanks!

[Iceaxe]

Several death's have resulted from this mistake. While I am a huge ATC fan this is it's one fault.

[taatmk]

Several death's have resulted from this mistake. While I am a huge ATC fan this is it's one fault.

I always like to have a second set of eyes, if possible, check out the rigging before sending the rapper off....just as a safety check..

[mcweyen]

Any chance you could elaborate on why the ATC-XP is not good for class C canyons? Twists and junk, I read, but could you explain that more?

Great read by the way. Thank you much!

[Slot Machine]

Slot Machine, could you explain what you learned. I see two different setups but I don't understand how one goes up-to-down and one that goes up-to-up.

Thanks!

I'll number Tom's photos in the middle of the ATC page #1 through #5.

In photo #2, 'up-to-down', the ATC is lined up in a good fashion. 'Up' towards the anchor, and 'down' towards your feet. It is not as perfectly aligned as photo #1, because there is a slight twist in the system. This slight twist doesn't usually cause any issues.

In photo #3, 'up-to-up', the ATC is lined up with a slight twist as well. It is 'up' towards the anchor, and the brake rope is pointed 'up' towards your face. There is enough twist in the system that your brake rope might be forced out of the side of the ATC, causing a change in friction. I've never had this happen on rappel, but it will happen when you belay a climber (hands back by your hip on rappel, vs having your hands out front on belay).

IMO, the skull and crossbones on photo #3 isn't warranted when someone is on rappel, because your brake hand should line up with this arrangement (if your hand is back by your hip). The warning is certainly warranted when on belay.

So what did I learn? That when using the 'low friction' side, and on rappel, there is the potential for the rope to hop out of the side of the ATC. Not rocket science, but that is the tidbit I had not considered.

When on rappel, and using the 'high friction' side I'm not convinced that there is a noteworthy difference is between #2 and #3. Perhaps Tom can elaborate...

[Brian in SLC]

Any chance you could elaborate on why the ATC-XP is not good for class C canyons? Twists and junk, I read, but could you explain that more?

Gettin' stuck in flowing water with "twists and junk" could be fatal.

[Brian in SLC]

I always like to have a second set of eyes, if possible, check out the rigging before sending the rapper off....just as a safety check..

I had one of my closest calls in recent years with the ATC clipped through to a locking carabiner with only one loop whilst on a double rope rappel.

Safer would be to load it up prior to disconnecting from the anchor, a habit I do all the time now. A partner (second set of eyes) really can't see the loops under the ATC what well, and, neither can the rappeller. Best to load prior to launch.

Even though I'd unclipped from the anchor, I still had a hand on it, and, when I leaned back and that loop popped out, was glad I hadn't just sunk my full weight onto it. Easy enough to lean in and re-clip. Whew.

[mcweyen]

Ah, stuck rather than causing slip or some such thing. Thanks

[WorkBad]

Slot Machine, Got it! Wow, thank you!

WorkBad

[Iceaxe]

Safer would be to load it up prior to disconnecting from the anchor, a habit I do all the time now. A partner (second set of eyes) really can't see the loops under the ATC what well, and, neither can the rappeller. Best to load prior to launch.

^^^THIS^^^

I have made it a habit for years to test load my ATC. I have missed clipping the second rope before.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

^^^THIS^^^

I have made it a habit for years to test load my ATC. I have missed clipping the second rope before.

I had a noob do it in front of me on a short rappel a couple years ago. We stopped him before he leaned back. It was our first two-rope rappel of the day, because it was the first really short rappel. Maybe shoulda stuck with one style, not gotten so gosh darn fancy about it.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Slot Machine, Got it! Wow, thank you!

WorkBad

Good explanation, Slot. I am looking for a clearer way to illustrate and explain this point (Hank did not like the explanation either).

It CAN discombobulate if twisted in any mode. Not a problem if you have tension on it the entire rappel, but if you un-weight the rappel, the torque might twist the ATC into an inappropriate rope path.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Gettin' stuck in flowing water with "twists and junk" could be fatal.

To expand on that...

In a real Class C canyon, under the water, the rappeller is overwhelmed with sensation, and getting stuck is a very bad thing. These are often cold, and one could have only a few minutes of functionality to figure out and fix any problem. People above and below may not have much idea of what is going on once you disappear into the white froth.

Rope hanging in flowing water will tend to have twisting forces on it (torque) which can make it develop twists. In addition, waterfalls often have algae or other greenish things hanging in them, which get plastered onto the rope. Both these items will tend to jam in the slots of an ATC, and be very difficult to clear. With a Pirana, applying MORE FORCE will generally push past such a disruption, while with an ATC, this will just get it more stuck.

As an example: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...y-august-2012/

Two ropes hanging in flowing water will twist around each other. Which is why Class C canyons are done with single-rope technique.

(Thanks for the comments, all good. Will try to revise to cover these additional items.)

Tom

[ratagonia]

I always like to have a second set of eyes, if possible, check out the rigging before sending the rapper off....just as a safety check..

The deaths I am aware of (in ANAM) are mostly Ice Climbing, where a lot of clothing is worn, and one just plain cannot SEE down there. Thus, I also like unclipping entirely and setting up the ATC in front of your face.

The funny thing about some of those accidents (as in, not really funny) is that they took the rope with them, since it was attached on one side, leaving their partner stranded halfway down a waterfall with no rope. Stoning the ropes (while rappelling double) would make this kind of mistake a "mistake" rather than a "body recovery".

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Last weekend I observed some differences between the 'ATC-XP' and the 'ATC-XP Guide'.

When using the regular 'ATC-XP' in the #3 position, the brake rope has a HUGE tendancy to jump out of the side of the device. This doesn't happen so much with the 'Guide' version. I think it's because they are shaped a little differently.

So I have to make a correction to what I said in my above post.

The #2 position works much better with the regular ATC-XP than the #3 postion. Leave the skull and crossbones on the #3 photo.

[kiwi_outdoors]

Don't blame the ATC - if you have two ropes you need to confirm that each rope is clipped in (thru the biner)

[kiwi_outdoors]

To expand on that...

In a real Class C canyon, under the water, the rappeller is overwhelmed with sensation, and getting stuck is a very bad thing. These are often cold, and one could have only a few minutes of functionality to figure out and fix any problem. People above and below may not have much idea of what is going on once you disappear into the white froth.

Rope hanging in flowing water will tend to have twisting forces on it (torque) which can make it develop twists. In addition, waterfalls often have algae or other greenish things hanging in them, which get plastered onto the rope. Both these items will tend to jam in the slots of an ATC, and be very difficult to clear. With a Pirana, applying MORE FORCE will generally push past such a disruption, while with an ATC, this will just get it more stuck.

As an example: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...y-august-2012/

Two ropes hanging in flowing water will twist around each other. Which is why Class C canyons are done with single-rope technique.

(Thanks for the comments, all good. Will try to revise to cover these additional items.)

Tom

Now that's some real good info