Pandora's Box - Important!

[Iceaxe]

I just had a conversation with the rangers at Capitol Reef National Park. It's seems the upstream exit out Chimney Rock Canyon and back over the top of Meek's Mesa is causing the park service a lot of problems with Search and Rescue.

The route finding involved with the Meeks Mesa Exit is causing a lot of SAR's because of lost or delayed hikers. It appears that most canyoneers underestimate the difficultly of this exit and the route finding involved.

So.... for the time being the NPS is advising and asking all canyoneers to use the downstream (Chimney Rock) exit. The upstream (Mesa Mesa Exit) will remain open, but anyone using the exit is asked to contact the Capitol Reef Rangers (435-425-4132) before attempting this route.

This is one of those deals where canyoneers can make a BIG difference with their actions. If Pandora's Box becomes a problem we could see additional restrictions like permits or closure. The fix to this problem is currently pretty easy, just use the downstream (Chimney Rock) exit as the NPS has requested.

[Iceaxe]

For the record, I have currently replaced the Meeks Mesa Exit on Climb-Utah.com with the following message

Meeks Mesa Exit:
The Meek's Mesa Exit is a second exit from Pandora's Box that is known to some canyoneers. The National Park Service is advising canyoneers to NOT use the Meek's Mesa Exit because of the high number of search and rescues involved with the route. The route finding and scrambling through the cliff bands is extremely difficult. The Meeks Mesa Exit is currently open, but those intending to use the exit are asked to contact the Capitol Reef Rangers (435-425-4132) before attempting the route.

Normally I'm all about providing all the information possible with regards to a route, but in this case it seem's the prudent thing to do with regards to future access is to remove the exit from Climb-Utah.com.

I'm curious what others think of this? The route is currently open, and the information is still avaiable, but the rangers want the Meeks Mesa beta to come through them.

Thoughts?

[Scott P]

I'm curious what others think of this?

I think what you are doing is the right thing.

[Shooter McCanyon]

I think if you remove it completely, it does not make the issue known to most people. Including it with the warning seems like the most responsible move.

[Scott P]

It could also be mentioned that a route exist, but you could choose to not include the route information. Include the info above about what the NPS says.

[TommyBoy]

Are the people getting lost as they try to go back up the mesa or once they get on top? I've done it twice and getting up didn't seem that hard to me. We did have some trouble getting around once we were back on top though so I can see how people could get lost. I made sure to take a GPS with me and mark the exit the 2nd time around.

[Iceaxe]

The big problem seems to be folks extremely underestimating the entire Meeks Mesa exit route. The actual length of time required and difficulties in route finding being the two main items mentioned by the rangers. Because the Meeks Meas route is shorter canyoneers think it will be faster and its not, time wise the two exits are similar. The Chimney Rock exit is a long walk, but it's really easy with no obstacles and allows for fast hiking.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bo_Beck]

Only have done the hike once, and pretty much soloed the route out with very few issues routefinding? Never done the other 2 exits out, but found the Meeks Mesa route out pretty straight forward. Options are good I suppose.

[Scott P]

Some people get lost on a marked trail, so people can get lost anywhere.

It sounds like most rescues may have been from people underestimating the time it takes to do the route?

[Iceaxe]

My current thought is the park has asked us to do something so they will not be required to impose any type of restrictions. The canyon community should do what we can to make this happen. The slot is still open and permit free, both exits are still open, the NPS is just attempting to get the websites and guidebooks to direct traffic out the Chimney Rock Trailhead and not back over the top.

[msmnificent]

Thanks for the info. I'll follow up and will probably add it the the access alerts for Capitol Reef on the AC website http://www.americancanyoneers.org/what-we-do/access/

If anyone ever gets a heads up like this for any Capitol Reef canyon I'd appreciate the info so I can keep the CR access page up to date.

The idea is to be proactive about access issues-- do something to mitigate them before a canyon closes, so, again, if anyone has concerns about access in Capitol Reef, please let me know.

Sending a message to me here on Bogley will work fine.

Thanks!
-Malia

[hesse15]

people undervaluate the description and overvaluate themself

recently somebody approached me introducing himself "as experienced canyoneer" asking me witch levels of canyons i do.....I did not have an answer,
i never really check rating just for me was :it is a slug approach/exit ,I am freezing my butt off or are they mae-west that if I miss i 'll die?

he looked at me puzzled, did not have any idea what i was talking about and just want a number out of me!!
I can rate canyons as bikini friendly (no body armor) or unfriendly (full gears!!!!)

but he was looking to do any canyons that in websites were listed "esperienced only"

after trying to school him a bit (he had already mishap in Moab's canyons)
I decided that he will learn after is first rescue the hard way
I think was better when only Kelsey books were around (personal note: pictures cannot be removed once printed)
so at least you get lost before you hit the canyon!!!!

I do not think there is anything can be done right now to avoid people to get over their head, I did that canyon and was a stroll for me but I was with somebody know the place very very well...............as you know ,but when he writes he did not stated : I do in 10h because i been there 20 times!!!!

people need to be a little more modest about their skills.
that is what will reduce dramatically the rescue events.

plus that exit route does not pose any dangers, you just need to be prepare to spend the night and finish it in daylight.

The big problem seems to be folks extremely underestimating the entire Meeks Mesa exit route. The actual length of time required and difficulties in route finding being the two main items mentioned by the rangers. Because the Meeks Meas route is shorter canyoneers think it will be faster and its not, time wise the two exits are similar. The Chimney Rock exit is a long walk, but it's really easy with no obstacles and allows for fast hiking.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

You will get no argument from me about the way some people over estimate their abilities. The strange part to me is it was not the actual canyon causing problems (it it is an advanced canyon, not your usual rap-n-swim kiddie canyon), but the hike out that was causing SAR.

Anyhoo.... for the time being the NPS is just nicely asking the beta websites to try and direct first timers downstream, and to increase the warning difficulty for the upstream exit. I really don't see an issue with the request. The rangers would not have asked if it was not a problem, the Capitol Reef rangers are some of the best around to work with. And it's something I personally think the beta sites should do to keep canyoneers on the parks good side.

YMMV

[hesse15]

I do not have any control anymore about the other site......now I have to readd my pictures myself after been removed!!!
perhaps posting on yahoo groups?
That I can do for you if you do not want to post there anymore!

You will get no argument from me about the way some people over estimate their abilities. The strange part to me is it was not the actual canyon causing problems (it it is an advanced canyon, not your usual rap-n-swim kiddie canyon), but the hike out that was causing SAR.

Anyhoo.... for the time being the NPS is just nicely asking the beta websites to try and direct first timers downstream, and to increase the warning difficulty for the upstream exit. I really don't see an issue with the request. The rangers would not have asked if it was not a problem, the Capitol Reef rangers are some of the best around to work with. And it's something I personally think the beta sites should do to keep canyoneers on the parks good side.

YMMV

[Iceaxe]

I do not have any control anymore about the other site......now I have to readd my pictures myself after been removed!!!
perhaps posting on yahoo groups?
That I can do for you if you do not want to post there anymore!

You are always welcome here Cristina.

Just curious... did he also revoke your membership when he took down your pictures?

[Iceaxe]

UPDATE:
I have added the Meeks Mesa Exit back into the Climb-Utah route description for Pandora's Box. I did add a very strong warning. But as I told mister ranger at the time I pulled it down, if the other beta sprayers didn't remove the route description I would be forced to add it back in and that appears to be the case.

[TommyBoy]

I did add a very strong warning.

Yes but it's the idiots that get themselves in trouble and as we all know, warnings don't stop idiots.

[hank moon]

Yes but it's the idiots that get themselves in trouble...

No offense, but it's thinking like ^^^ that sometimes gets folks in trouble. Right, Shane? :)

[TommyBoy]

My last comment was mostly meant as a joke, of course the warning should be there for those that take such things seriously. I just meant that even with it there someone will still manage to get themselves in trouble thinking that for some reason it doesn't apply to them.

[Iceaxe]

No offense, but it's thinking like ^^^ that sometimes gets folks in trouble. Right, Shane? :)

The one common denominator I've discovered that often gets people in trouble is they start getting to big for their britches and think they know more then they actually do.

I still blame over confidence as a large contributing factor to the fun filled night we spent in Sandthrax, as I'm sure you will agree.

Which also explains the "I've done three canyons" expert. Canyoneering is a very simple and fun sport, right up to the minute it isn't.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3