Canyoneering 101 Class Suggestions?

[jman]

Just a update for all y'all,

I have been chipping at this for the 5 past weeks and have a good, presentable form now! But I need to do a few more tweaks and ill present it soon.

One thing that persisted while I was doing this was creating a checklist of canyons as you progress. And so to my surprise Dan Ransom over at CC created a thread called "Canyon Progression" which imitates my thoughts exactly. I encourage you all to read that btw.

Anyway, I have something adapted from my thoughts and the previously mentioned thread, so the following (keep this in mind, as this meant for beginners):

Beginner Canyoneers should follow a canyon progression, so they can acquire new skills while existing skills at knots, anchors, and confidence increase. Keep in mind, that doing the following canyons verbatim will NOT instantly make you READY (physically and mentally) for the last canyons on the list.

This progression list provides a starting list that the community has agreed upon that will help you become a more competent canyoneer.

For Zion (for example):

1st - Keyhole
2nd - Echo
3rd - Pinecreek
4th - Spry
5th - Mystery
...bottom of the list...Imlay and then Heaps.

Skill Progression List:
-Learn Rappelling 101 (as taught from 101)
-Rappel from 50ft
-Rappel 100ft
-Rappel 200ft+-
-Rappel 50+- freehang
-Rappel 100+- freehang
-Rappel 40x of various heights up to 200ft.
-Rappel 300ft (not freehang)
-learn how to tie 2 ropes and how to pass a knot while on rappel

-Learn the basics of a pothole and techniques to conquer them (taught from 101)
-While under direct-supervison, descend a canyon where potholes exist (such as Knotted Rope in the Swell).
-Find a practice canyon with potholes (such as Willow Spring Canyon in Moab) to practice escaping again and again.
-Find a competent canyoneer expert, who deems you qualified to escape a pothole and have him lead you through another canyon where more challenging potholes exist.

Etc etc etc.

And for those not paying attention to the thread - this serves as a 101 to intro canyoneering and some of the logistics involved with the sport. The hope of this idea is to prevent people from thinking "ohhhh...the corona arch swing...looks easy enough...ill just use some rope from Walmart" mentality; and have a good plan of standardization of where noobs can start and be better trained going into the sport.

Any comments on adding the "progression" list? Keep in mind it's not meant as a comprehensive or exhaustive list, but like the 101, used as a starting point or reference. Or would by adding it, I would muddying the waters or would be throwing too much info at the trainee?

Edit - I hate typing on my phone... Ugh. So many typos to fix... :(

[Slot Machine]

^^Nice post Brett. Well thought out.^^

1st - Keyhole
2nd - Echo
3rd - Pinecreek
4th - Spry
5th - Mystery
...bottom of the list...Imlay and then Heaps.

IMO, Spry is a step up from Mystery. Exposed anchors, awkward rappel starts, free hanging rappels and couple of tricky rope pulls place it a step above.

Maybe Keyhole, Echo, Birch Hollow, Pine Creek, Mystery... ?

[jman]

^^Nice post Brett. Well thought out.^^



IMO, Spry is a step up from Mystery. Exposed anchors, awkward rappel starts, free hanging rappels and couple of tricky rope pulls place it a step above.

Maybe Keyhole, Echo, Birch Hollow, Pine Creek, Mystery... ?

Thanks Bob! I think birch is tougher than Pine creek due to the length, the exit, loose rocks on the first couple raps, and then the whole mud issue there.

How about key, echo, pinecreek, mystery, spry, birch to start off for Zion? Granted I'm not going to list every single Zion canyon in the list, but the common trade canyons. Each area is going to be different, but I would like to create a list for the other areas as well. The intent behind that is - you don't HAVE to go to Zion just to learn about canyoneering (as some might infer from my post). But it's the most common place in Utah. And then having a place for Moab, North Wash, and the Roost. From there, branch out to California and Arizona.

Regardless of location, the 101 will provide a starting and standardization tool and local canyoneer folks whereever they might live, can then change the "progression list" to their prospective areas, such as SoCal, Hawaii, Ouray, East Coast, Oregon, etc. But the most important thing is standardization.

[Slot Machine]

Thanks Bob! I think birch is tougher than Pine creek due to the length, the exit, loose rocks on the first couple raps, and then the whole mud issue there.

Yeah, all good points. A dry Birch is a fun Birch.

How about key, echo, pinecreek, mystery, spry, birch to start off for Zion?

Spry still is a step up from Birch, for the above reasons (post #42) and one more that I just though of -

Spry gives people several chances to get into serious trouble. For example, there is a pool in the watercourse that requires a short rap to get into. From above it seems like a reasonable option. Once you rap into it and swim across you discover that the pool ends in a 70 foot drop with no anchor. If your group commits to that pool, then hilarity will not ensue. (one must climb, traverse LDC then rappel to avoid this) Spry is not a good place to learn, especially when full of water. More advanced skills are pretty nice in there.

I though Mystery was just a hair more difficult than Birch, but we caught Birch when it was bone dry. Only doing each once it is tough to say which one is more difficult, on average.

Sooo....

Keyhole, Echo, Pinecreek, Mystery, Birch, (medium gap), then Spry?

[Iceaxe]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons.... and I'd really hate presenting them that way.... size, physical abilities and climbing skills are much more at play.

For example:

Middle Leprechaun is simple for smurfs, difficult for large frame canyoneers and it's impossible for anyone in the XL category.

Zero-G is a cakewalk if your a smurf's or anyone with 5.8 or better climbing skills. All others will have to deal with the R-rated bombay exit.

I've done Pine Creek dry and never even got my feet wet, I've done Pine Creek when it has an amazing amount of swimming, and I've done Pine Creek with flow. Each is a totally different animal. That last Pine Creek rappel is a real bitch for some, I seldom take noobs into Pine Creek because of it, I like them to get a few more canyons under their belt.

Technically Fat Man's Misery is a piece of cake, but it takes mediocre or better backcountry skills because of navigation and route finding. In addition it takes intermediate or better physical fitness because of the length.

A feller that is a Zion expert is total noob the first time he visits the skinnies...

When I was young we considered Subway to be a nice hike, now I'm older and my physical abilities have diminished some I consider it a technical canyon. So do you rate the canyon for age 25 or 50?

Trying to create a progression runs into the same problems you get when trying to rate canyons. Rating canyons is probably the most difficult and subjective item there is when in comes to spraying beta. What is normal conditions for a canyon?

I would recommend as an alternative you list several trade routes that are beginner friendly for popular areas. At least that allows for a baseline. When someone asks me about a particular canyon I usually ask what else they have done in the area and then I can have a knowledgable discussion with them.

But if you guys want to try and flowchart the canyons then have at it.

YMMV

[hank moon]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons....

I'm kinda with Shane on this one. BUT, there are good places to start, liiiiike ...Keyhole. Everyone's favorite starter slot. Beautiful, twisty and easily accessed, its chief complications are that it is dark, wet and cold. It's also mercifully short, and has an easy escape between middle and lower. I've heard of parties taking 3-5 hours in there, but that's rare. Doing Keyhole once as a noob is fun. Going for an immediate second or third round can be highly educational and confidence boosting. So do laps on Keyhole (or similar) first to dial in your fledgling skills. Then think about something else that is low-commitment, close to the road, with easy access and egress.

That said, everyone is different and a progression checklist could be very useful for the right person(s). Please, do carry on!

[jman]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons.... and I'd really hate presenting them that way.... size, physical abilities and climbing skills are much more at play.

For example:

Middle Leprechaun is simple for smurfs, difficult for large frame canyoneers and it's impossible for anyone in the XL category.

Zero-G is a cakewalk if your a smurf's or anyone with 5.8 or better climbing skills. All others will have to deal with the R-rated bombay exit.

I've done Pine Creek dry and never even got my feet wet, I've done Pine Creek when it has an amazing amount of swimming, and I've done Pine Creek with flow. Each is a totally different animal. That last Pine Creek rappel is a real bitch for some, I seldom take noobs into Pine Creek because of it, I like them to get a few more canyons under their belt.

Technically Fat Man's Misery is a piece of cake, but it takes mediocre or better backcountry skills because of navigation and route finding. In addition it takes intermediate or better physical fitness because of the length.

A feller that is a Zion expert is total noob the first time he visits the skinnies...

When I was young we considered Subway to be a nice hike, now I'm older and my physical abilities have diminished some I consider it a technical canyon. So do you rate the canyon for age 25 or 50?

Trying to create a progression runs into the same problems you get when trying to rate canyons. Rating canyons is probably the most difficult and subjective item there is when in comes to spraying beta. What is normal conditions for a canyon?

I would recommend as an alternative you list several trade routes that are beginner friendly for popular areas. At least that allows for a baseline. When someone asks me about a particular canyon I usually ask what else they have done in the area and then I can have a knowledgable discussion with them.

But if you guys want to try and flowchart the canyons then at it.

YMMV

All great points Shane. Those are the same issues and problems that I have come across as well. It's very subjective but you need a baseline somewhere. And how we reach that is complex. But something needs to change in my opinion. More and more people are discovering the sport, getting more bold in the sport, underestimate their skills AND canyon, etc. Its like rules - they are there to protect the general public. And there is not a lot of standardization or things that the community generally agrees on. And is that a problem? Is it suppose to be that way? Do you want to hand-tailor a trip for every single noob in the world? No. Part of the fun of canyoneering is the exploration, but they need to do it safely. Bottom line, and every time.

I agree that having a few beginner slots to choose from is a alternate good idea as well. But there are problems that arise from there too. I'm not looking for the perfect system because it won't exist ever. But, I think we need to better educate and train those who are too shy to ask for help or know where to start.

Darn, this is a tough cat to skin!! Lol

[jman]

I'm kinda with Shane on this one. BUT, there are good places to start, liiiiike ...Keyhole. Everyone's favorite starter slot. Beautiful, twisty and easily accessed, its chief complications are that it is dark, wet and cold. It's also mercifully short, and has an easy escape between middle and lower. I've heard of parties taking 3-5 hours in there, but that's rare. Doing Keyhole once as a noob is fun. Going for an immediate second or third round can be highly educational and confidence boosting. So do laps on Keyhole (or similar) first to dial in your fledgling skills. Then think about something else that is low-commitment, close to the road, with easy access and egress.

That said, everyone is different and a progression checklist could be very useful for the right person(s). Please, do carry on!

Thanks hank. It's not meant to be the end-all of lists or an exhaustive to become the worlds best canyoneer...it's just a baseline that the community can refer to when noobs say "well... Which canyons can I do in Moab...in Zion....etc..."

Yes, I get that this is EXTREMLY subjective but it needs a reference point.

[jman]

What is normal conditions for a canyon?

Ahhhh...see now we are getting somewhere!

Thanks to all of the awesome contributors from here and other forums, Canditon.com has exploded with reports, which in turn has created a trending pattern for a lot of canyons.

Go check out any popular canyon and you will start to see patterns. IE - "hasn't rained in 2 weeks but last pothole still chest deep" and "last pothole still chest deep" and "rained heavy and washed lots of sand into the canyon. Most potholes are filled with sand, but last pothole about waist-deep". Then, as more and more reports come in....we can now extrapolate "normal" conditions.

[Iceaxe]

Go check out any popular canyon and you will start to see patterns.

Hahaha.... you haven't even been around long enough to see the patterns.... more like in the 1990's. Pine Creek was really wet and always had a lot of long swims.... in the 2000's it dried up and could often be done with just minor wading.... recently it has started to swing back to the 90's version....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Hahaha.... you haven't even been around long enough to see the patterns.... more like in the 1990's. Pine Creek was really wet and always had a lot of long swims.... in the 2000's it dried up and could often be done with just minor wading.... recently it has started to swing back to the 90's version....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Good point. It's probably more like decade cycles or something. But hey, I'll take month to month, year by year. It all adds up...

[Iceaxe]

I believe you need to get noobs some practical in canyon experience..... once they have that and get a basic understanding of the sport most are smart enough to figure out the progression.

And then you have the ones that will just never figure it out no matter how many warnings you post or how many R's and X's you tack on the rating or where the canyon ends up on the flow chart... you can't fix stupid.

From writing beta I have learned you just have to draw the Darwin (dumbass?) line at some point or you will always be catering to the lowest common denominator and you will lose the top 3/4 of the class. So my suggestion is to target the meaty part of the bell curve.


YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

The worst criteria for noob disaster, is noob teaching noob!!!

Any noob can get through a fairly difficult canyon with a seasoned canyoneer, and should!

There is no replacing learning from anothers experiences.

No matter--check ones credentials before doing a canyon with them.

And one other note when questioning someones resume--there is a BIG difference in leading a canyon and being responsible for others vs. following.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

Setting up some type of a mentor program would be a huge asset and probably a lot useful then flow charting canyons...

[jman]

^^^THIS^^^

Setting up some type of a mentor program would be a huge asset and probably a lot useful then flow charting canyons...

I agree 100%. And what I'm presenting isn't a flowing chart. Perhaps you are thinking this is just rainbows and unicorn thinking, or that I'm off in dreamland with this project. I'm not sure how you guys view this sport in 10-20 years, but it's only going to increase, and quickly too. What was it a month ago - over a 1000+ requests for June just for the subway?! And how many people have you come across in the subway that are ill-prepared, undressed, and lack the appropriate skills. And that's what I want to assist in changing.

Hank moon brought up a good point on Facebook mentioning the increase in SARs the past couple it years and that got me thinking about how can we slow this progressing trend? It comes down to this - more informed and better trained Canyoneers and leaders (who also train and lead better). That's it.

Then the next logical step is how do we make that happen? By only teaching in mentoring sessions and classrooms?

Most people aren't willing to spend $150 for a canyon let alone $200 for a rope?! There are many canyoneers who are just the weekend-warrior types and are not like us canyon junkies per se. And for the most part, it's the weekend-warriors who get into the most trouble right??

And where do weekend-warriors turn for their information - always, always, the Internet. And so with that logic - it got me thinking, how can we better inform and standardize what these people read and hear about?

Here is a great example of weekend-warriors oblivious-ness to the sport. They see a cool canyon like Englestead and see a 300ft rappel. Sounds wicked man! And so they buy a 300ft 8mm rope thinking they will be fine, and NOT taking into account the physics of the rope and rappelling. A 8mm rope at the top of the 300ft cliff isn't going to be a 8mm rope at the end. And so the rappeller goes faster and faster down the rope while thinking their hand is just getting tired while rappelling and that's why they are speeding up, when as we all now, the rope diameter is shrinking. That's just one example of ignorance to dynamics of the sport.

Letting these weekend-warrior types know of these hazards is only a good thing


But I agree 100% mentoring is the best way to learn. But that's if only the leader is a an expert, and not like as oldno7 said, a noob teaching a noob.

After hours of reflecting on this, It's probably best to ex the progression list and put that in another side project, and stick to the fundamentals and skills with my original plan for the 101.

[Iceaxe]

Take what I post with a grain of salt.... I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.... overall your project looks like a winner.

Be careful of building an elephant sandwich. You want to start with a small project and do it well, once it's up and running you can add-on.

[jman]

Take what I post with a grain of salt.... I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.... overall your project looks like a winner.

Thanks Shane. I really do appreciate and value everyone's opinion thus far, even if I come across as frantic or even angry, which I'm not. Quite the opposite.

Anyways, and incase I haven't said it already, thanks for the support and feedback. I'm pretty excited about its progress.

[hank moon]

There is no replacing learning from anothers experiences.

How about "There is no replacing learning from your own experience, under the guidance of an expert"

Which might be what you intended to say? In any event, total support for mentoring. It's a powerful tool.

I also think that Jman's progression list has many possibilities. Like...maybe if instead of formatting it as "progression" from one point to another, it was a canyon db that can be used to quickly reference good training areas for specific skills. I think we already have something like that (somewhere?) that filters by region and/or rating. How about adding a skill filter onto that? Click radio buttons for criteria such as natural anchoring, pothole escape, high stemming, multi-pitch rappels, raps < 50', raps > 200', navigational challenges, etc.

You could click on a few skills, filter by Zion and 3B and come up with Mystery Canyon as your next likely skills development spot.

[jman]

How about "There is no replacing learning from your own experience, under the guidance of an expert"

Which might be what you intended to say? In any event, total support for mentoring. It's a powerful tool.

I also think that Jman's progression list has many possibilities. Like...maybe if instead of formatting it as "progression" from one point to another, it was a canyon db that can be used to quickly reference good training areas for specific skills. I think we already have something like that (somewhere?) that filters by region and/or rating. How about adding a skill filter onto that? Click radio buttons for criteria such as natural anchoring, pothole escape, high stemming, multi-pitch rappels, raps < 50', raps > 200', navigational challenges, etc.

You could click on a few skills, filter by Zion and 3B and come up with Mystery Canyon as your next likely skills development spot.

Now thats a GREAT idea. Hmmmm....thanks Hank!

[oldno7]

jman--I completely applaud your effort

Mentoring should be a part but in all likeness, probably rarely is.

My main point is that all to often, one reads or views canyon material, gets a friend and a rope and away they go.

I truly hope your effort will bring some of the inexperienced to a base of reality.

It would seem that a lot of folks underestimate canyoneering until it is to late.

I helped write up the technical course for the aca several years ago, I probably have that in a file somewhere if you would like to see it.

It would be nice if there was a way to get solid/workable skills into the hands of those starting out, your effort here is definitely a step in the right direction.