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Thread: Boy Scouts could end ban on Gay Members & Leaders

  1. #141
    Gotta agree with Tom, pedophiles are something else. But... there are a lot of strict rules in place with having ZERO one on one time. I wasn't able to drive a scout home alone, even if he was the last in my vehicle. The last two scouts had to leave my vehicle at the same time whether I'm straight or Gay. This happened every Tuesday where I would drive them home. Or if there was 1 boy left, I would need another leader with me. This is a good rule for starters. It prevents the chance for allegations too.

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  4. #142
    Pedophiles, even those that prefer boys, identify as heterosexual. You should be worried about youth group leaders that are pedophiles, not those that are homosexual.
    So in your opinion, should male leaders go camping with girl scouts?
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  5. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    I would go to a friend's house if I knew they had cocaine in the house..

    Fixed it...

  6. #144
    Technically with the rules in place, men could go camping with little girls and if the rules were followed, the only incident would be the gossiping parents.

    This goes with my other point, we can make the rules, we can follow the rules, but these will not force people to think a certain way. So when the rules are in place and all of the political beaurocracy BS is in place, where then will we turn when things still aren't according to our idea of utopia?

    Go ahead and pass / delete these rules just to get it over with and then we get to the realization that policies do not erase prejudice and misconceptions. Only time.

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  8. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Gays are not pedophiles.
    Not much of an argument to counter what I was saying. Please just answer the question I asked. Why would a gay adult male want to be a leader in an organization for boys?

  9. #146
    I can offer an answer, for the same reason a straight guy like me might want to be a scout leader. There is no sexual motivation and my boy isn't old enough for the program, but some people just love the scouting program. I wouldn't say I'm one of the guys that gets all excited about a jamboree, but there are plenty of straight guys out there wanting to donate their time to give these boys a great program. Gay or straight. But dammit, don't be surprised when rules are opened up and people are not magically unbiased. This alone is a good reason to not rush into this. It's going to take some time and careful consideration. If you are openly Gay and you then decide to flaunt your sexuality, you should be kicked out on the basis of causing a commotion. Sexual preference has zero place in the scouting program and you should be kicked out if you try to involve it. Just be smart about it.

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  10. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Oh, the movie version. Well, let me just say that "P.S. The "blue pool" is NOT in Bluejohn Canyon."
    Life is Good

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  12. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    I can offer an answer, for the same reason a straight guy like me might want to be a scout leader.
    I agree, but there are also other possible reasons. The reasons a straight person would want to be, and the reasons a gay person would want to be are not a perfect subset of each other. That was whole my point. It's appearances, it's propriety. It's motives. A gay person's motives for wanting to be a scout leader, almost all of the time, are ok. But there are clearly times when a gay person's motives are for wanting to be a scout leader not ok.

  13. #149
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Not much of an argument to counter what I was saying. Please just answer the question I asked. Why would a gay adult male want to be a leader in an organization for boys?
    Why would any adult male want to be a leader in an organization for boys, aside from pedophilia?

    Same.

    Perhaps their son has entered Boy Scouts, and they want to contribute.

    You make it sound nefarious.

    Tom

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  15. #150
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    Oh, the movie version. Well, let me just say that "P.S. The "blue pool" is NOT in Bluejohn Canyon."
    The movie version is a documentary, not a fiction. As I remember (always suspect), the movie interviewed members of their church that said basically what I said. However, the movie also downplayed the LDS aspect, more pitching it as a conservative Protestant-ish church, rather than specifically LDS.

    (re-evaluation: the film is mostly documentary, but is not stated as such, as it is based on the play, which is mostly documentary. There are disputes about the motives behind the crime - I tend to believe it was mostly gay-hate, but rational people can believe it was drug-oriented. See what happens when the boys don't go off on mission?)

    Tom

  16. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    I agree, but there are also other possible reasons. The reasons a straight person would want to be, and the reasons a gay person would want to be are not a perfect subset of each other. That was whole my point. It's appearances, it's propriety. It's motives. A gay person's motives for wanting to be a scout leader, almost all of the time, are ok. But there are clearly times when a gay person's motives are for wanting to be a scout leader not ok.
    perhaps you did not get the memo.


    Adult male who has sexual interest in adult males = gay.

    Adult male who has sexual interest in children = pedophile.

    So your question is, why would a pedophile want to be a Scout Leader?

    The answer now is, in general, they don't. The Scouts have taken steps to reduce pedophilic opportunities to near zero, and therefore... perhaps the pedophile would enjoy the titillation of hanging around possible targets, but I suspect that they would prefer sitting in the basement cruising the Interwebs.

    Tom

  17. #152
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    So in your opinion, should male leaders go camping with girl scouts?
    Absolutely.

    Better if the Girl Scout Troop has competent female role models to lead such outings. Certainly better if the leadership team includes at least some female leaders. But sometimes that is not how it works out.

    What are you afraid of?

    Let me answer that - pedophiles and gossips.

    The defense is good systems that include always-paired leaders and zero one on one time.

    Are you afraid of Lesbian leaders camping with Girl Scouts? Because the GSA are a tolerant organization, and that happens now.

    Do I need to mention that Lesbian does not equal pedophile?

    Tom

  18. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post

    Perhaps their son has entered Boy Scouts, and they want to contribute.

    You make it sound nefarious.

    Tom
    I starting to see your side of the argument, and I agree on a number of points. Thanks for the new insights. As a person involved in scouting (but not ever really wanting to be involved too much), i always wonder why anyone would want to be involved. I still maintain that a straight person's reasons and a gay person's reasons are not a perfect subset of each other.

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  20. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    As a person involved in scouting (but not ever really wanting to be involved too much), i always wonder why anyone would want to be involved.
    This is me too. But then you go to the jamborees and scouting events, and you see the guys that are REALLY into it, they are having an absolute ball and they are sad when it's over. These are the guys that should be involved in scouting, and the guys like you and I are just there to do our good deed I guess.

    Some of these guys that love the scouting program are gay. They aren't in it for attraction to the boys. They love the activities, the teaching, the skills and the fun.

    But damnit, if they want to flaunt their sexuality as a "neener neener the rules say I can be gay and still be a leader", then they shouldn't be in the program at all, they should be expelled. Just be smart about it.

  21. #155
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    But damnit, if they want to flaunt their sexuality as a "neener neener the rules say I can be gay and still be a leader", then they shouldn't be in the program at all, they should be expelled. Just be smart about it.
    Is there a lot of this?

    I know the hetero scout leaders do this a TON! Showing off their wives, kissing them in public, telling the scouts all the time how great hetero life is! So disgusting!

    Oh wait, no; that is considered normal behavior. What is your claim?

    I agree, Som, that preening and taunting is inappropriate. I just disagree that this is likely to happen, especially in Utah.

    Tom

  22. #156
    To be honest, in all the years of scouting I've been involved with, I can't think of a time where I've talked about dating my wife, and I don't think the boys have seen me kiss her in public, hell she's never even dropped me off to scouts.

    They do know I'm married because we're all local and we associate with each other in various situations other than scouts.

    But I've NEVER talked about sexuality or sex at any Scouting function, there's zero place for that.

    So I expect it to be the same way with a Gay leader.

  23. #157
    http://www.advocate.com/print-issue/...wrong?page=0,0

    "...he amassed enough anecdotal evidence to build a persuasive case that Shepard’s sexuality was, if not incidental, certainly less central than popular consensus has lead us to believe."


    http://www.sgn.org/sgnnews37_20/mobile/page1.cfm


    "Perhaps it was retired Police Chief of Laramie, Dave O'Malley, who said it best. "My feelings have been that initial contact was probably motivated by robbery because they needed money. What they got was $30 and a pair of shoes," said O'Malley. "Then something changed, and changed profoundly. But we will never know, because Matt's dead and I don't trust what McKinney and Henderson said."

  24. #158
    It's official.

    Boy Scouts of America votes to end ban on gay adults

    The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has unanimously approved a resolution to end the organisation's ban on gay adults working as leaders.

    The group's national executive board will meet to ratify the resolution on 27 July, the Boy Scouts said in a statement.

    It is a major step towards ending a policy that has caused deep rifts in the group, which was set up in 1910.

    The BSA voted to end a ban on allowing open gay boys to become scouts in 2013.

    Earlier this year, former US defence secretary Robert Gates, who is BSA president, told the group's national meeting that the ban on gay adults needed to end, saying it was no longer sustainable.

    The selection of Mr Gates as president in 2014 was seen as an opportunity to revisit the policy since he helped end the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that barred openly gay people from serving in the US military.

    The resolution, which was passed by the BSA's 17-member executive committee on Friday, will become official policy if it is ratified by the 80-member executive board later this month.

    It will allow scout units to set their own policy on the issue and mean they can select adult leaders without regard to sexual orientation.
    It will, however, also allow units with religious ties to "continue to choose adult leaders whose beliefs are consistent with their own".

    Several denominations that sponsor large numbers of scout units - including the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention - have been apprehensive about ending the ban on gay adults.

    The resolution was hailed by Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout (the highest boy scout rank) raised by two lesbians who now heads the advocacy group Scouts for Equality.

    "While this policy change is not perfect - BSA's religious chartering partners will be allowed to continue to discriminate against gay adults - it is difficult to overstate the importance of today's announcement," Mr Wahls said.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33516801


  25. #159
    KSL reported that they will stay with the Boy Scouts of America


  26. #160
    SALT LAKE CITY — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Wednesday saying it would stay with the Boy Scouts of America.
    The church released a statement early Wednesday morning:

    "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints appreciates the positive contributions Scouting has made over the years to thousands of its young men and boys and to thousands of other youth. As leaders of the Church, we want the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to succeed in its historic mission to instill leadership skills and high moral standards in youth of all faiths and circumstances, thereby equipping them for greater success in life and valuable service to their country.

    "In the resolution adopted on July 27, 2015, and in subsequent verbal assurances to us, BSA has reiterated that it expects those who sponsor Scouting units (such as the Church) to appoint Scout leaders according to their religious and moral values "in word and deed and who will best inculcate the organization's values through the Scouting program." At this time, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will go forward as a chartering organization of BSA, and as in the past, will appoint Scout leaders and volunteers who uphold and exemplify Church doctrine, values, and standards.

    "With equal concern for the substantial number of youth who live outside the United States and Canada, the Church will continue to evaluate and refine program options that better meet its global needs."

    On July 27, the Boy Scouts of America lifted a nationwide ban on gay leaders. At the time, the church said it was "troubled" by the decision.

    Members of the church who are on the BSA National Board, including Quorum of the Twelve member Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, General Young Men's President Stephen Owen and General Primary President Rosemary Wixom voted against the new policy.

    "The Church has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation," church spokesman Eric Hawkins said in a prepared statement. "However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America."

    Hawkins confirmed at the time that the church was considering the possibility of creating an international program similar to Scouting for young men ages 12 to 18.

    Approximately 430,000 of the BSA's 2.6 million Scouts belong to LDS Church-sponsored units. It is the largest charter in the country.

    Utah is home of the Great Salt Lake, National Parks and Trapper Trails councils.


    http://ksl.com/?sid=36178007


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