Boy Scouts could end ban on Gay Members & Leaders

[rockgremlin]

I am currently a scout master. My biggest concern is how other scouts would treat any gay scouts in the troop. Not that I really think any boy 12-13 would really know if there gay at that age. I wouldn't care if there was a gay scout in my troop. I just know how brutal boys at that age can be. And I think there is a big chance they would be made fun of when the leaders weren't around. And the question that has already been brought up, how do sleeping arrangements work?

My thoughts exactly.

[Sombeech]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what rules are set by responsible adults, this will do nothing to stop teenage boys from being cruel.

This certainty could reinforce the concept of keeping your private life private if you wish to be in scouts - let me rephrase that, be in the scouting program

Otherwise, if gays are allowed, and you are still mocked, ridiculed and made fun of by a bunch of immature teenage boys, who then could you protest to? What actions could you take if the rule has been set, but teenagers are acting like teenagers?

Rules and policies sometimes do nothing to solve a problem.

[Don]

Yeah, kids are often assholes. I doubt that will change. But it seems easy to justify bigotry when the whole organization is bigoted, maybe not so much if the organization teaches tolerance and acceptance, or if acceptance is still too difficult, maybe they could start with empathy.

[rockgremlin]

Yeah, kids are often assholes. I doubt that will change. But it seems easy to justify bigotry when the whole organization is bigoted, maybe not so much if the organization teaches tolerance and acceptance, or if acceptance is still too difficult, maybe they could start with empathy.

X2

[Sombeech]

Hey I say open it up! But if we are expecting better treatment of people because rules and policies are made, that is unfortunate.

[ratagonia]

I am currently a scout master. My biggest concern is how other scouts would treat any gay scouts in the troop. Not that I really think any boy 12-13 would really know if there gay at that age. I wouldn't care if there was a gay scout in my troop. I just know how brutal boys at that age can be. And I think there is a big chance they would be made fun of when the leaders weren't around.

Kids are cruel, but kids are also flexible. They look for cues from adults and peers. An organizational bigotry supports the kid's bigotry. Organizational acceptance would encourage kid's acceptance.

The two LDS young men who beat and killed Matthew Sheppard had their prejudices inflamed by the adults around them, including local LDS functionaries. They GOT the message given, which is that Gays should be dead!!! They were not old enough to realize that this was NOT permission to go out and kill Gays.

And the question that has already been brought up, how do sleeping arrangements work?

I remember a piece (probably NPR) when the discussion was about having (open) gays in the army. One lieutenant said "I don't want to shower with gay soldiers". His sergeant looked at him and said "you already have".

This question is a question steeped in prejudice. Gays are not predators and rapists, at least not moreso than Heteros. Kids already sleep next to their gay or straight friends. And no, before you suggest otherwise, sleeping in a tent with a gay kid will not make a straight kid gay.

I think what this will do is you will ultimately end up having gay only Scout troops.

Or gay-accepting only Scout troops. We already have that - but the Unitarian Church is not real strong in Utah. There is also a gay-accepting version of Scouts that split off when the BSA got captured by the bigots - not sure how much traction they have gotten. Separate But Equal - it worked so well before... (Sarcasm). Again, this is a statement steeped in prejudice. Again, doing a Pine Wood Derby with a gay scout will not make a straight scout gay.

Also as a leader I have zero experience with gay youth.

You think? I remember a piece (probably NPR) when the discussion...

It seems like this might open up an entirely new can of worms for an already law suit happy nation. ....?

Lawsuit-happiness is a myth propagated successfully by the insurance companies to increase their profits. There will be some issues to be worked out, but...

I really don't think I will ever see anyone at 12-13 knowingly be gay. So I don't even seeing this changing anything for me. Although at 14-18 I see this more likely but still not much. Really, at what age does one know they are gay. ...? I really don't know the answer.

Clearly, you don't know the answer. When did you (presumably male and hetero) first notice interest in girls? I know by the time I was in Scouts I was interested in girls, because I learned about porno in Scouts. You seem to think that being homo is very different from being hetero... it is not.

[jman]

I remember a piece (probably NPR) when the discussion was about having (open) gays in the army. One lieutenant said "I don't want to shower with gay soldiers". His sergeant looked at him and said "you already have".

Question - so if there is a male who is a homosexual and is changing with an "attractive" male in the changing room and checking him out or getting off, etc... (I'm not generalizing and saying that all do - but the point of homosexuality is that you are attracted to YOUR same sex, so naturally, they are going to be attracted to other males in that changing room)...then why shouldn't women be allowed to go into a men's bathroom then? What's the difference there??

So why then, is a there a barrier between men and women while changing? Do a bunch of hetero women want a bunch of hetero men watching them change? This is just a guess but 99% of women will say no. Do a bunch of hetero men want to watch a bunch of hetero men watching them change? This is just a guess, but most men will say no. FYI - *Watching=checking-out that individual in area that is suppose to be private.

If you label yourself as homosexual, then do you naturally want to watch other men change? Yes. If you are a homosexual woman, do you want to naturally watch other women change? Yes.

(I'm trying to make that a distinction clear, but sometimes my mind and words don't match).

[Scott P]

This question is a question steeped in prejudice. Gays are not predators and rapists, at least not moreso than Heteros.

Tom, what you say is true, but I'd still be concerned about sleeping arrangements for any leader that was sleeping overnight with scouts of the same sex that they are attracted to.

For example, I don't thing I'd want my daughter to go on campouts with heterosexual male leaders.

[Sombeech]

The two LDS young men who beat and killed Matthew Sheppard had their prejudices inflamed by the adults around them, including local LDS functionaries. They GOT the message given, which is that Gays should be dead!!! They were not old enough to realize that this was NOT permission to go out and kill Gays.

Another successful media lie. Matthew Sheppard was beaten to death... NOT because he was gay, NOT because the LDS boys got the message that Gays should be dead (OMG are you serious?). His attackers intended to extract information out of him regarding a large DRUG shipment, and it went South from there.

He wasn't beaten to death because he was gay.

[Scott P]

Another successful media lie. Matthew Sheppard was beaten to death... NOT because he was gay, NOT because the LDS boys got the message that Gays should be dead (OMG are you serious?). His attackers intended to extract information out of him regarding a large DRUG shipment, and it went South from there.

Off topic perhaps, but one of the main motives for the murder/robbery was because he was gay, at least this is what witnesses, as well as the defendants themselves said in the trial and it is what the perpetrators themselves told to police.

If you are referring to Stephen Jimenez book (and 20/20 interview), the police, witnesses, and most other people involved disputed the book's information.

[qedcook]

This question is a question steeped in prejudice. Gays are not predators...

Motives must come into question, at least a bit, when a gay adult male wants to be a leader in an organization for boys. How could motives not come into question? Perhaps it's one of those situations where you just avoid the easy entanglements, if for no other reason than propriety. I wouldn't go to a friend's house if I knew they had cocaine in the house. It's no reflection on how I feel about my friend. It's just wiser to not.

[Sombeech]

one of the main motives for the murder/robbery was because he was gay,

This point may be debated until the end of time, but one thing is for damned sure, he wasn't killed because the "LDS Church taught these boys that Gays should be dead" - WHAT THE SHIT

[Scott Card]

The two LDS young men who beat and killed Matthew Sheppard had their prejudices inflamed by the adults around them, including local LDS functionaries. They GOT the message given, which is that Gays should be dead!!! They were not old enough to realize that this was NOT permission to go out and kill Gays.

Ahhh, Tom, do you have a source for this statement?

[qedcook]

Ahhh, Tom, do you have a source for this statement?

Shhhh, Scott... Don't encourage him...

[Tiemac]

I would not want my young boy spending time alone in the woods with a gay guy. Just like I would not let my daughter go spend time in the woods with a heterosexual man.

[ratagonia]

Tom, what you say is true, but I'd still be concerned about sleeping arrangements for any leader that was sleeping overnight with scouts of the same sex that they are attracted to.

For example, I don't thing I'd want my daughter to go on campouts with heterosexual male leaders.

Pedophiles, even those that prefer boys, identify as heterosexual. You should be worried about youth group leaders that are pedophiles, not those that are homosexual.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I would not want my young boy spending time alone in the woods with a gay guy. Just like I would not let my daughter go spend time in the woods with a heterosexual man.

In Boy Scouts, youth do not spend time alone in the woods with adult leaders.

You should be concerned about your youth being out in the woods alone with a pedophile, whether the pedophile identifies as homo (unlikely) or hetero (more likely).

Tom

[ratagonia]

Ahhh, Tom, do you have a source for this statement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Laramie_Project

the movie version.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Motives must come into question, at least a bit, when a gay adult male wants to be a leader in an organization for boys. How could motives not come into question? Perhaps it's one of those situations where you just avoid the easy entanglements, if for no other reason than propriety. I wouldn't go to a friend's house if I knew they had cocaine in the house. It's no reflection on how I feel about my friend. It's just wiser to not.

Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
Gays are not pedophiles.
etc.

[ratagonia]

Tom, what you say is true, but I'd still be concerned about sleeping arrangements for any leader that was sleeping overnight with scouts of the same sex that they are attracted to.

You mean, you do not want your kid sleeping in the same tent as a pedophile?

Gays are not pedophiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societa...and_pedophilia

etc.