beta for sad cow disease ?

[Slot Machine]

Hey Slot, You love betaless descents? When did you do one of those? You are still really new to the sport, impressive! TR? Please don't rub it in our face and then not post the beta...

Oh unless you are just trolling like iceaxe.

Not trolling. Just trying to get Tom's question answered in a timely fasion. I have this life away from Bogley that requires my attention. One can only spend so many hours a day answering questions.

I like using minimal beta, depending on the canyon. No betaless descents.

Anything else you want to nitpick?? What's next? A measure-off?

[yetigonecrazy]

I would rather miss an opportunity to see a canyon than be force fed somebody else's awesomeness. you found it first? cool. don't want to play well with others and share beta? sweet. but I'm not going to be forced to play tag along (even if I'm in the lead, like Ice said, it's still having your hand held.....) just because someone needs an ego-boosting validation that they "found" the canyon. I'll find it on my own, or I wont. Simple. Asking for beta on canyons around here is like asking anything in a room full of deaf kids- they may see youre asking something, but youre never going to get a clear answer, or anything helpful.....anyway, ymmv.

[2065toyota]

How many people have completed all the published canyons? Until then does it really matter if there are "secret" canyons? Or is it just the principle if the thing of feeling left out that is the issue?

[ratagonia]

I would rather miss an opportunity to see a canyon than be force fed somebody else's awesomeness. you found it first? cool. don't want to play well with others and share beta? sweet. but I'm not going to be forced to play tag along (even if I'm in the lead, like Ice said, it's still having your hand held.....) just because someone needs an ego-boosting validation that they "found" the canyon. I'll find it on my own, or I wont. Simple. Asking for beta on canyons around here is like asking anything in a room full of deaf kids- they may see you're asking something, but you're never going to get a clear answer, or anything helpful.....anyway, ymmv.

Ah, now I understand.

GRANTED - you have my 100% permission to go wander around in the desert and explore and find canyons at will. Have a good time out there, enjoy yourself, bring everyone back. Please don't leave a mess.

I'm glad the whole conflict was so easy to resolve.

Here's a great essay by Wyoming Dave that talks about some of the trials and tribulations of finding canyons:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0712exploration/

Tom

[yetigonecrazy]

Have a good time out there, enjoy yourself, bring everyone back. Please don't leave a mess.

Sounds like a great time to me. No passwords, no contracts, no handshakes.....just good friends and that beautiful Utah sun.

[Slot Machine]

How many people have completed all the published canyons?

Zero.

Until then does it really matter if there are "secret" canyons?

It depends on what you want to do. If I'm interested on doing the cool rap in Neon that I just saw a picture of, and there is no beta, then it matters.

Or is it just the principle if the thing of feeling left out that is the issue?

I think it's not so much a feeling of being left out, but more of an expectation of normal human interaction.

Let's say you walk into an auditorium full of seasoned canyoneers. It's open mic night. You can ask whatever you like. You approach the podium and hold up a photo of a canyon that you found in some magazine. You say to the audience, "This canyon looks cool, I would like to do it. Could somebody in the audience tell me where it is?"

If the audience were dead silent, wouldn't that seem awfully strange? If you knew that people in the audience knew the answer, or had even been there, wouldn't that seem even more strange?

If one person stood up in the audience and proclaimed, "I will happily take you there, on one condition: You can tell nobody else in the audience about the canyon upon your return." Wouldn't that seem completely bizarre? Wouldn't everyone in the audience turn and glare? Wouldn't most of the people in the auditorium have negative feelings about that statement? I'd think so.

Personally, I would always expect someone in the audience to answer with something like, "It's next door to such-and-such canyon. It's a 3BII; take a 200 foot rope. You'll love it, be safe and have a good time."

Call me sane, but that's the issue in a nutshell. At least to me.

Bob

[2065toyota]

Have 'YOU' ever been denied beta with even the smallest amount of effort of finding it?

I really am curious. Because its never been a issue. Thx

[Slot Machine]

Have 'YOU' ever been denied beta with even the smallest amount of effort of finding it?

I really am curious. Because its never been a issue. Thx

Sure I have, here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ow-Beta-Needed

Micro death is very close to Escalante. Just a couple of miles. It would make a killer hike if you exited downstream to the road. I'd bet hundreds of people have done it. But, no responses at all? Kinda strange. So I went and scouted it. I have a friend that also scouted it. We plan on doing it soon, so I don't need the beta now.

I've asked about lots of crap on The Amazing Map thread, and had no responses. If you have a whole bunch of free time, you can check out those posts too.

To be fair, I ask a LOT of questions, and most of them get answered. So I'm grateful for that. However, I'm still surprised whenever I post a dud, like Micro Death. No biggie. I'll get 'er done.

Bob

[2065toyota]

I've only used the amazing map thread to get the amazing map. I guess if I wanted beta bad enough I would start a thread or just ask somebody. Sorry if you have been denied beta on a small percentage. I really didn't think there was any at all so I am wrong. However, I don't feel like everyone is entitled to everything. Just like I don't think the guy demanding he be served faster and better at a restaurant should be served any quicker. Seems like this always turns into a conspiracy theory type event rather than a factually based legitimate concern.
Thanks all that have helped me in the past and those who do so in the future. Have fun and be safe. Hopefully to meet some new people next weekend in Moab

[ratagonia]

I've only used the amazing map thread to get the amazing map. I guess if I wanted beta bad enough I would start a thread or just ask somebody. Sorry if you have been denied beta on a small percentage. I really didn't think there was any at all so I am wrong. However, I don't feel like everyone is entitled to everything. Just like I don't think the guy demanding he be served faster and better at a restaurant should be served any quicker. Seems like this always turns into a conspiracy theory type event rather than a factually based legitimate concern.

Thanks all that have helped me in the past and those who do so in the future. Have fun and be safe. Hopefully to meet some new people next weekend in Moab

You should note, Kody, that Bob explicitly declines to participate in any off-the-radar discussions. Thus, most people who have off-the-radar beta (the kind he is looking for) have no desire to correspond with him. It is kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

Micro death is very close to Escalante. Just a couple of miles. It would make a killer hike if you exited downstream to the road. I'd bet hundreds of people have done it. But, no responses at all? Kinda strange. So I went and scouted it. I have a friend that also scouted it. We plan on doing it soon, so I don't need the beta now.

hundreds? i doubt it. it's just not that great of a canyon. and it has a 300 foot rappel in it, so not very many people have the gear to pull it off. but yeah, a few of us have likely done it.

with that said bob, i'm sorry you don't see why this is happening. you are asking for help from people while simultaneously offending them and mischaracterizing them. why, exactly, would any of us want to help you?

why didn't you contact me directly about Micro Death, instead of publicly posting my TR on this site and then suggesting publicly I won't give you any help? I honestly never even saw that question. but that's because my participation on this forum is almost nonexistent now, because of the countless situations exactly like this one.

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

that said, i'll promise you this. if you ask for help, and do it nice, you'll get the help you need. how do i know this? because there are hundreds of canyoneers who have done exactly that. i'm one of them. and we all started the same you did, we met a few people online or in the canyons. i came in with a humble attitude and eagerness to learn and explore. i didn't barge onto the scene demanding that the community somehow owed me something. and now, today, i can honestly count on one hand the number of them who still post on bogley.

for whatever reason, this forum seems intent on fostering an environment of vitriol and division, and an "us" vs "them" mentality. do you ever stop and wonder why it's crickets around here when you ask for beta? it's because every single one of us who would be willing to provide the advice no longer enjoy using this forum, because the whole environment is always negative, and continually full of drama. there's 4 characters who love to stir chaos up all the time, and it's exhausting.

hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the problem is not with me, or with "us." the problem is YOU. you are mean spirited, offensive, and exude an air of entitlement that is off-putting. it's not that hard of a concept to understand. if you want help from people, ask nice. if you don't want to accept their offers, or their conditions, that's all well and fine. but don't complain about it just because people have conditions that aren't up to your standards. and certainly don't expect us to rush to your aid on a public forum everytime you have an itch about some random canyon you saw on satellite images. there's thousands of well documented canyons to pick from, why do you think the community is obligated to answer your every intrigue?

like iceaxe said so eloquently, grow up, put on your big boy pants, and go out and do some canyons. you seem to think that doing a beta-less exploration is the ultimate anyways, so why is this even a discussion right now? no one will ever fault you for publishing your efforts, if they are, in fact your efforts. in reality, i think most of us will cheer you on, i know i will. i think your passion for all this is awesome, but i am puzzled why you direct it in a direction that you do. people don't fault you for your passion, we fault you for your attitude, offensiveness, and constant mis-characterization of the very people you seem to expect to provide you with answers. i honestly don't know why any of "us" even stick around or comment anymore.

what, exactly, is your endgame with all this?

[Slot Machine]

You should note, Kody, that Bob explicitly declines to participate in any off-the-radar discussions.

True. Kinda. Any involving deal making that is. I've had many quality off-the-radar conversations.

Thus, most people who have off-the-radar beta (the kind he is looking for) have no desire to correspond with him.

FALSE. Sundowners AGAIN tonight?? *sigh* If you were clairvoyant, then you might not be yanking unfactiods out your backside, based mostly on conjecture. Most canyoneers are quite friendly and helpful. In person, you are also rather friendly and helpful. (sorry to give your real identity away)

It is kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Sometimes. My stubbornness has opened more doors than you might imagine, Mr Tom.

[Slot Machine]

hundreds? i doubt it. it's just not that great of a canyon. and it has a 300 foot rappel in it, so not very many people have the gear to pull it off. but yeah, a few of us have likely done it.

with that said bob, i'm sorry you don't see why this is happening. you are asking for help from people while simultaneously offending them and mischaracterizing them. why, exactly, would any of us want to help you?

why didn't you contact me directly about Micro Death, instead of publicly posting my TR on this site and then suggesting publicly I won't give you any help? I honestly never even saw that question. but that's because my participation on this forum is almost nonexistent now, because of the countless situations exactly like this one.

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

that said, i'll promise you this. if you ask for help, and do it nice, you'll get the help you need. how do i know this? because there are hundreds of canyoneers who have done exactly that. i'm one of them. and we all started the same you did, we met a few people online or in the canyons. i came in with a humble attitude and eagerness to learn and explore. i didn't barge onto the scene demanding that the community somehow owed me something. and now, today, i can honestly count on one hand the number of them who still post on bogley.

for whatever reason, this forum seems intent on fostering an environment of vitriol and division, and an "us" vs "them" mentality. do you ever stop and wonder why it's crickets around here when you ask for beta? it's because every single one of us who would be willing to provide the advice no longer enjoy using this forum, because the whole environment is always negative, and continually full of drama. there's 4 characters who love to stir chaos up all the time, and it's exhausting.

hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the problem is not with me, or with "us." the problem is YOU. you are mean spirited, offensive, and exude an air of entitlement that is off-putting. it's not that hard of a concept to understand. if you want help from people, ask nice. if you don't want to accept their offers, or their conditions, that's all well and fine. but don't complain about it just because people have conditions that aren't up to your standards. and certainly don't expect us to rush to your aid on a public forum everytime you have an itch about some random canyon you saw on satellite images. there's thousands of well documented canyons to pick from, why do you think the community is obligated to answer your every intrigue?

like iceaxe said so eloquently, grow up, put on your big boy pants, and go out and do some canyons. you seem to think that doing a beta-less exploration is the ultimate anyways, so why is this even a discussion right now? no one will ever fault you for publishing your efforts, if they are, in fact your efforts. in reality, i think most of us will cheer you on, i know i will. i think your passion for all this is awesome, but i am puzzled why you direct it in a direction that you do. people don't fault you for your passion, we fault you for your attitude, offensiveness, and constant mis-characterization of the very people you seem to expect to provide you with answers. i honestly don't know why any of "us" even stick around or comment anymore.

what, exactly, is your endgame with all this?

To have as much fun as I can. And to avoid guys like you.

[2065toyota]

2012
36 canyons with 72 different people

thank you all. Hope 2013 is even better

[yetigonecrazy]

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

I don't really know you but Im gonna have to kinda call bullshit on that....

A certain group of people, knowingly and willfully withholding information from others, and only agreeing to release said beta under "contract", "handshake", or "agreement"....sorry Carpey, but its YOU guys that are creating an "US vs THEM"!!! If you dont want to create an us vs them, then share beta and give people credit, because then it puts everybody on the same page! Let's see...a small group of people who have something that others desire, but those people have no interest in sharing unless certain guidelines are met?? Sounds like people behaving like ELITES to me!!

You guys can try to justify your behaviors and try to push the blame for the "us v them" and "elitist" comments onto other people, but any and all of you who participate in such activities has NOBODY to blame but yourself. You've created the "us v them", and you've already painted yourselves as "elitists" with your behavior. now that people are calling you out on it, y'all are now backpedaling and saying "blah blah thats not us blah blah."

I agree that Bob hasnt been the nicest person in the whole Us vs Them debate, but damn do I respect him more than any of you. When someone has a question, Bob answers with any and all info he can- because he wants to share his passion for the sport. Complete opposite of others, who when asked, say nothing, or offer a "contract". Good on Bob for politely declining your requests. At least he gets to keep his self respect in process. personally the thought of having to get down and grovel for beta makes me sick. Id rather not see a canyon than be forced into metaphorically kissing your boot and telling you how awesome you are for finding said canyon and hiding it's existence. I said it before, doing that kind of shit is an ego-booster at best. I'm not going to be forced to have someone walk behind me, making sure I don't do anything rash, like I'm a stupid kid or something. Give me a little more credit than that. I haven't put a mark or a piece of trash on a canyon yet, why would I start now? Why is it always the assumption that if someone isn't part of the Elite Few, then they must a complete doofus with their head in their ass and a strong desire to shit all over a canyon? Who appointed you to be the one that decides who goes in and who doesn't? And if you say "self-appointed", because you were the first to do it, then there you go. A perfect example of elevating yourself above the rest of us, and further creating the elitist us vs them. It's strictly ego, and nothing more. I'm here to enjoy slot canyons, hiking, and other like minded people. I am NOT here to stroke the ego of people who put themselves on a higher plate than everyone else. Oh, you may not think you are doing it....but you are.

Feel free to jump all over me. I'm new, I'm young, and I don't really know any of you so I do make a nice target. You are thinking things like "he doesn't canyoneer, what does he know?!" Or, "he's just some idiot from Colorado". But, I do have experiences with this. I've been arguing for years and years about this same sort of thing in kayaking. Bottom line, there are ALWAYS going to be a few people out there who put themselves on a pedastel above the rest. That's fine. If you want to do it, go for it. That's your perrogative. But if you are going to.....then for god's sake don't try to claim you are like the rest of us. Because your actions speak to another explanation. You were trying to call someone out for doing something, when in fact it was you and your companions who did it to yourselves. J If you're going to be Elitists, just embrace the role already....

[SRG]

It's strictly ego

i saw a quote from a previous thread that I liked...

Those who share beta do so because of ego, those who don't share beta do so because of ego

I think it can sometimes feel like a lose/lose situation.

Regarding the elitism thing, I see your point Yeti. However It seems like the "a team" are down to go do canyons with whoever emails them(noob or not) and I think that's pretty cool. Try calling up Lebron James and seeing if he wants to come shoot hoops with you... He doesn't.

[MSchasch]

Yeti,

Something that you may find if you go out and do canyons enough, is that there are hundreds of people who get out often. You might find 5% post on this site due to the negativity. What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year. They don't spend a lot of time talking about canyons, they are out doing them. The "underdogs" are those few online who make themselves out to be victims just because they can't get along with others, love internet drama, don't actually do any canyons, or....I don't really know.

Come out and do canyons. Be weary of people who spend most their time on message boards posing as experts.

[yetigonecrazy]

I am not trying to imply they aren't nice people who aren't approachable. Quite the contrary, I know they are all fellow human beings, with families, feelings, desires, etc, just as we all do. I would gladly put my life on the line to offer assistance to any other human being, and that is non-negotiable.

I am merely saying that don't hide what you are doing, or pretend to be something you aren't. If you are going to hold yourself to a higher pedigree than you hold everyone else, and are going to view everyone else with skepticism, rather than optimism, when the topic of beta comes up, then don't hide behind the internet and do nothing. Bottom line, if you're actions can be described by multiple other people as "elitist" or "a-teamer".......then embrace it and call yourself an Elitist. Call yourself the A team. Better to be proud of it than acting like you aren't.

[Iceaxe]

What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year.

If you believe that then you are wrong. They are called the A-team because that is the name Tom once use to describe a specific group of people he was going canyons with.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

With regards to negatively..... about the only time this forum goes negative is when a show-don't-tell canyon pops up and suddenly the A-team rushs in. If you need a good example look at this and the Walker thread. Just a wild ass guess, but I'm thinking the threads go negative because the A-team rushes in to point out the error of our ways from the top of their ivory covered castles.

Ymmv

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3