beta for sad cow disease ?

**Iceaxe** · 01-31-2013, 11:23 AM

FWIW: One of the biggest problems I have with "show-don't-tell" is that by definition I'm being "guided" through the canyon. I prefer to pull up my big boy pants and do the route without dad holding my hand.

**Sponsored Link** · 01-31-2013 11:23 AM

**levifackrell** · 01-31-2013, 11:24 AM

Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

**Iceaxe** · 01-31-2013, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by levifackrell

Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

Actually my experience it just the opposite happens... as word starts to leak out folks go loaded for bear looking for the canyon. This results in multiple social trails, rat nests of clown webbing, and the sprouting of bolt gardens.

Show-don't-tell works great for preserving the pristine for a short period, but long term it is detrimental to the canyon. I prefer to look at slots in 10 year cycles.

YMMV

**Slot Machine** · 01-31-2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

FWIW: One of the biggest problems I have with "show-don't-tell" is that by definition I'm being "guided" through the canyon. I prefer to pull up my big boy pants and do the route without dad holding my hand.

I couldn't agree more. The sense of adventure is very real without a human safety net. It's the difference between being an adventurer and a tourist IMO. Obviously, only doing first descents would be the purest form of canyoneering adventure, but one cannot simply do a first descent every day. The downside of this mentor-free approach is that your risk is substantially increased. For example, taking my small inexperienced crew through Shenanigans was hair-raising and risky, but it was a thrilling and deeply rewarding day that can't be duplicated. You can only be introduced to Shenany once. Do you want someone with you holding your hand? Is your group ok with the risk? You might say it wasn't worth the risk. I do, and so do the people I was with. That being said, every person gets something different out of canyoneering. I'm not saying what you should find rewarding, just offering my point of view.

I think finding Sad Cow in person would be vastly more rewarding than being guided there. Just a point to ponder.

Originally Posted by levifackrell

Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

Do what works for you! Post a trip report when you get back. (Oh, I joke, I joke)

**ratagonia** · 01-31-2013, 02:56 PM

So, let me get this straight ---

You LOVE doing beta-less descents - but you are super indignant that we won't give you beta on demand. WTF????????????????????????????

You decline our invitations to go do canyons with us, and then you are all uppity snuppity about HOW we 'take people down canyons'. Ie, you heavily criticize something you know nothing about. WTF???????????????????????????????

**dweaver2130** · 01-31-2013, 03:45 PM

I think if I really wanted to do some of these show don't tell canyons and still wanted to feel like I was not simply being "guided" through a route this is what I would do...

I would ask for someone to show me the route, and also ask them to let me lead or at least give me the opportunity to figure out the small details, like anchors, down climbs, etc. If my choices would increase resource damage or contribute to building rat's nests of webbing or the like, they would be there to say so. At the same time it would allow me to develop my skills and progress as a canyoneer.

That should prevent the stuff ice talked about, while still letting one flex their own brain power. Having someone there who has the experience in the route can only be a benefit to the group.

I don't know if I my ideas are well thought out or not, but they seem to impress the hamster running the wheel in my skull.

**MSchasch** · 01-31-2013, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by dweaver2130

I would ask for someone to show me the route, and also ask them to let me lead or at least give me the opportunity to figure out the small details, like anchors, down climbs, etc. If my choices would increase resource damage or contribute to building rat's nests of webbing or the like, they would be there to say so. At the same time it would allow me to develop my skills and progress as a canyoneer.

This is how it usually works.

New to you, you go first, the "showers" hang out in the back unless assistance is needed or warranted.

**dweaver2130** · 01-31-2013, 05:06 PM

Oh ok, well then that's awesome!

**Iceaxe** · 01-31-2013, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by MSchasch

This is how it usually works.

New to you, you go first, the "showers" hang out in the back unless assistance is needed or warranted.

That's exactly how I canyoneer with my kids!

It's a great way to learn, but they are still being guided and daddy is there to bail them out of any situation they can't handle.

Thanks for making my point so crystal clear....

There is a huge difference between trying to figure out the problem and having to figure out the problem.

**Slot Machine** · 01-31-2013, 05:39 PM

Hehehe

*rubs temples*