beta for sad cow disease ?

[rockgremlin]

Shakespeare couldn't have drafted a finer comedy than you guys and your little mud-slinging war.

[Deathcricket]

I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

I should double check my numbers before posting, but that's never stopped me before.

I believe Z-crew is the proud supporter of at least 3 accounts. Keep on rocking buddy. Course we use them for commercial routes in Zion, nothing spicy, but still....

[yetigonecrazy]

but now that you've spelled out exactly what your goals and interests are, i encourage everyone to consider what is really going on here, and why you continue to perpetuate this drama. it results in cash in your pocket, and a petty war for your selfish reasons. any concept of "for the community" is absurd, given this reply. it's all about you.

at least you've finally admitted it.

So stifling/withholding/backdoor-pressuring-mods-to-remove-posts-that-have-beta is "for the community"?

Seems to me keeping people out of public canyons because you don't think most people can match up to the standards you have seems rather selfish in itself.

I'd much rather give someone like Shane my money than be forced to go through initiation rites. At least I keep my dignity when I do it :)

[2065toyota]

I am a little curious as too how often Mods get requests to remove beta.

Are any of the Mods ok to answer that? As to what percentage of trips reports that get posted, are asked to be removed?

I did a few months ago, and they obliged, but I didn't receive their blessing on my choice. I don't know of any other instances. There was a little backlash over the issue, and I will take full responsibility for it. I was not asked to remove it by anyone, it was entirely my call. In hindsight, I probably made the wrong choice because it would have just rolled to second page into oblivion, but oh well.

[Brian in SLC]

[Iceaxe]

at least you've finally admitted it.

I've never denied it or stated otherwise.... but since you're not exactly the brightest crayon in the box I figured I'd spell it out for ya.

[Brian in SLC]

[MSchasch]

I've never denied it or stated otherwise.... but since you're not exactly the brightest crayon in the box I figured I'd spell it out for ya.

Have fun being a snake!

Its easy to see why you have 0 friends, and never dare show your face at any canyon function you don't put on

[Iceaxe]

I am a little curious as too how often Mods get requests to remove beta

It averages out to about once a month....

A secondary, and far more common problem, is when someone new to Bogley makes a "secert" canyon post the A-team will pressure/bully the new guy into removing or altering their orginal post. We are experimenting with a couple methods of countering the problem.

[Brian in SLC]

Its easy to see why you have 0 friends, and never dare show your face at any canyon function you don't put on

Yep, can't see his face...buried in the ham it appears. That just ain't kosher...

[Iceaxe]

I have a hot young stripper wife, why would I want to hang out and sleep in the dirt with a bunch of guys that haven't showered in a week?

[MSchasch]

Damn, if that pic from Jane's would have been Shane eating a piece of beef, this thread would almost be back on topic....

[rockgremlin]

F***ING AWESOME POST MAN!! I'm on my 5th time listening to it. I can't stop....kinda like that girl at the end.

[Iceaxe]

F***ING AWESOME POST MAN!! I'm on my 5th time listening to it. I can't stop....kinda like that girl at the end.

x2

[shaggy125]

Hey look, I've come out of my retirement from internet forums! Sorry to not reply to your private message levifackrell, I retired from forums a while ago and never check this. I only came today because a few people told me my blog was causing controversy on Bogely. I have absolutely no chance of keeping up with you guys, you post SO MUCH! And honestly I didn't enjoy disliking people who are most likely very nice when they are not behind a keyboard. ;) I was going to send this as a private message to levifackrell but decided to just post it for the world to see.

First off Levi (I assume that's your name), I need to apologize for even posting those photos. I can see the argument against going on the internet and bragging with photos of canyons I'm not willing to give beta for. I started my blog never really intending for a bunch of internet canyoneers to get on and drool over my photos. I started it mostly with the intent of having photos available online so I could show them to family and friends wherever I had internet. I would upload them to some super crappy photo sharing service that has since gone out of business, then I would embed them on the blog. The blog was to put the photos in a nice scroll-able page that I could easily slide through rather than get horrendous popups and ads on the other site. Later, because of prodding by Tom, I re-did all the posts that had been deleted when the photo site disappeared and most of my early posts were re-incarnated in a sense (many just have links to the photos on Picasa since I didn't want to take the time to embed them all again).

When I started the blog I was only doing canyons with beta, then eventually met much more experienced guys who became my good friends, and who taught me countless things about movement in the canyon, efficiency, anchoring, etc... These guys molded me into the canyoneer I am now, because of them I was trying downclimbs I never thought possible and eventually even got into some "first," descents and high stemming canyons. Yes there were canyons they asked me to not spray beta about on the internet but they told me photos were fine, as I still wanted to keep up the blog with my adventures, I thought this was harmless. After the advent of locked albums on Picasa, etc... maybe I should have kept photos of canyons I was unwilling to give beta on in them? I certainly should not have posted a photo of Sad Cow Disease on the best canyon photos forum, and I'm sorry for doing so, I can see the argument that I'm being a douche-bag and hanging a doughnut in front of your face then adding conditions to eating it. Looking from some of your guy's point of view I can see how it would come across like that.

Unfortunately, I can't give beta because the people who showed me the canyon asked that I not. They are my good friends and regardless of how you or I feel about sharing beta, I agreed not to. I can take you there... but I rarely do canyons anymore as my passion has become climbing and I spend most of my free time doing that. I do canyons maybe once or twice a year, and I still absolutely love them, but Sad Cow is very little bang for the buck and if I'm only doing a few canyons a year, I would most likely not repeat that one. However it seems Tom has offered a trip and all I can say is those guys give good trips. :)

To my credit however, I did freely give beta on Trachyotomy when I scouted and descended it, but that's really the only canyon I ever put all the leg work into (Ryan Cornea and Mike Kelsey had done it before us, but we missed all evidence of their descent) and felt I could do what I wanted with the beta. I can see arguments for both sides, but honestly I don't like the idea of EVERY canyon having beta, I think canyoneers should have the option to do the legwork and find new canyons, even really good ones. It really is a rewarding process. Why scouting duds can actually be fun and makes finding that gem all the more rewarding. I was with Dave P. when he found, and we descended Woody. He was STOKED out of his mind to find a good canyon finally! When I first started canyons I wanted beta on everything, and felt left out when people were doing classics that I had no access to beta for, as I started breaking into being comfortable with pulling the trigger on something I was terrified to try, I was glad there was still stuff out there to find, and adventure to be had.

I will now go back into retirement while you guys bicker about my response. ;)

Eric (Shaggy)

[Iceaxe]

I can see the argument that I'm being a douche-bag and hanging a doughnut in front of your face then adding conditions to eating it.

Thanks Shaggy

That was a well written and well thought out response. I really liked the donut analogy.

[ratagonia]

Hey look, I've come out of my retirement from internet forums! Sorry to not reply to your private message levifackrell, I retired from forums a while ago and never check this. I only came today because a few people told me my blog was causing controversy on Bogely. I have absolutely no chance of keeping up with you guys, you post SO MUCH! And honestly I didn't enjoy disliking people who are most likely very nice when they are not behind a keyboard. ;) I was going to send this as a private message to levifackrell but decided to just post it for the world to see.

...

Eric (Shaggy)

Thank you for the post, Eric. Glad you are having great fun climbing... we miss you. Tom

[yetigonecrazy]

Thanks so much for your input Shaggy. It was nice of you to come back and see us to help clear some things up. We appreciate it!

I can see the argument against going on the internet and bragging with photos of canyons I'm not willing to give beta for.

I wish more people would see this.

[rockgremlin]

Thanks Brian, this has been on extended replay ever since Tuesday when it was posted. Never gets old.


"Where is it?"
"Riiiiiight there..."
"Where is it?"
"My @**....."



To make this post remotely relevant, those fellas better use protection or they might get sad cow disease. I've heard it's pretty bad...

[2065toyota]

Thanks so much for your input Shaggy. It was nice of you to come back and see us to help clear some things up. We appreciate it!



I wish more people would see this.

I guess it's just a lot about attitude. I've never been offended one time by anybody posting cool pictures and taking about amazing adventures with no info of their exact location. Maybe a little thicker skin is needed by some people

Thanks @Shaggy for your cool pictures, I would choose that you still post them, and anybody that was to also continue to do so ( @RAM ) . To me, this spurs the taste for adventure, not the poor me I feel so left out.