beta for sad cow disease ?

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large. you said it yourself, you don't know me...

but you are right, i don't offer beta for free. i ask people to pay for it, by being a nice person, and by being the kind of person i'd like to share a campfire with, and not posting it online. i have a variety of motivations for this. you may consider those motivations noble or not, i won't defend them anymore at this point.

however, let me ask you this, why is there no uproar when someone posts asking for beta, and they are referred to a site that requires one to PAY for it with cash? if your issue is that you don't want to make a deal, then i hope you don't buy beta from elitists who sell it.

if you expect this all to be a level playing field, then let's do it. let's make all beta open source.

i propose we level the playing field. just to start, let's pick 100 canyons to release publicly for free, no strings attached. i'd also be interested to hear ways you personally could contribute to this project? i highly doubt this whole thing will work if the community just expects 5 people to share all their beta publicly, but no one else brings anything else to the effort.

so let's brainstorm. how do we level the playing field?

[Sombeech]

Hey Levi, i hope you found the info you were looking for. Whether or not it gets posted here in public, or somebody contacted you in private to provide some data because of your question posted here, i hope you'll see that bogley is a great place to start looking for that information and very often produces results.

Thanks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Iceaxe]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large.

I think you have that a little backwards. Bogley does represent the general canyoneer community, at the very least it represents the largest cross section and largest gathering place of US canyoneers. Using the volume of traffic by unique individuals as a guide everything else is dwarfed by comparison. In fact, it dwarfs all other forms of communications in the canyoneering world using any type of measurements you care to devise. Which is probably why most canyoneers, including Ram and yourself, monitor the forum so closely.

Forums take on the personally of the members, and since bogley has by far the largest membership and largest volume of traffic it does a good job of representing the community, at least better then any other forum currently available.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Scott P]

If I'm interested on doing the cool rap in Neon that I just saw a picture of, and there is no beta, then it matters.

But the people whom first did the canyon did have any beta either. As mentioned, sometimes it's a lot of hard work to find a new canyon.

Sometimes the people who want the free beta aren't willing to give anything back in return. When you ask them if they want to go help scout out a canyon or to do it to see if it's any good, they refuse.

Many people have given a lot of beta out, but few are willing to give them any in return.

People like to bash Tom, but I'm willing that he has given out a lot more beta than people give him in return. Same goes for several other people as well.

What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year.



If you believe that then you are wrong. They are called the A-team because that is the name Tom once use to describe a specific group of people he was going canyons

I haven't seen/participated in every Bogley discussion, but I was under the impression that those who are outside the A team were those whom he perceived to be doing canyons unsafely. Of course I might be completely wrong and Tom could answer for himself.

[Iceaxe]

Once and for all... the term A-team came from a comment Tom made in jest... because he was berating a fellow canyon at the time the term grew some legs of its own.... when others started referring to themselves as the B-team the legend grew.

There is no official A-team that exists outside of Tom's mind. However, an official B-team may or may not exist.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[shagdeuce]

Zero.

Let's say you walk into an auditorium full of seasoned canyoneers. It's open mic night. You can ask whatever you like. You approach the podium and hold up a photo of a canyon that you found in some magazine. You say to the audience, "This canyon looks cool, I would like to do it. Could somebody in the audience tell me where it is?"

If the audience were dead silent, wouldn't that seem awfully strange?

As someone who relies on beta to do canyons 100% of the time, I appreciate when beta gets communicated publically; however, I can't wrap my mind around the notion that those who have private beta on canyons have an obligation to share it when it is asked for. In fishing, for example, if I ask a fisherman to give me the details on his favorite hole, he may deny the request outright or if we have built a relationship, he may share the details and ask me to keep the details secret. Why is the expectation so different in canyoneering? Why is there a sense that the community at large is entitled to all of the beta that is generated? The best argument that I can think of is that in canyoneering, we aren't talking about a diminishing resource. The quick counterarugment that those withholding the beta will likely argue that (1) prestine canyons and (2) privacy awesome canyons are a diminishing resource.

My personal opinion is that I don't think it is rude when those asking for beta are met with crickets, nor is it rude when those that have shared private beta get upset when those that have benefited from the private beta make it public. Where I think the line is crossed are (1) attacks on those that legitimately generate unknown beta (without the help of private beta) and then decide to post it publically or (2) requests to take beta down from a public forum once it is posted (the consequence here should be taken care of privately - such as withholding beta from that person in the future - rather than attempting to strongarm the mods).

Anyway...my two cents.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

Its nice to see that some understand what the real conflict is.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[stefan]

I think you have that a little backwards. Bogley does represent the general canyoneer community, at the very least it represents the largest cross section and largest gathering place of US canyoneers. Using the volume of traffic by unique individuals as a guide everything else is dwarfed by comparison. In fact, it dwarfs all other forms of communications in the canyoneering world using any type of measurements you care to devise. Which is probably why most canyoneers, including Ram and yourself, monitor the forum so closely.

Forums take on the personally of the members, and since bogley has by far the largest membership and largest volume of traffic it does a good job of representing the community, at least better then any other forum currently available.

I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of the canyoneering community "at large" does not check out any Internet forums on canyoneering let alone follow them closely. (some may at most only see a forum from a specific google search.) and of those who do follow an Internet forum only a small percentage ever post. communities are defined and interconnected in many more ways than the internet (as you point out) but just because these people aren't connected through the Internet doesn't mean they aren't connected to the "community." just because one doesn't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

i assume you are mostly focused on the subcommunity that is connected through the internet.

as far as forums taking on the personality of the members, it seems more that a forum tends to take on the personality of its members who post and even more so by its most vocal members ... and this is a tiny group compared to the full viewership.

[Iceaxe]

I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of the canyoneering community "at large" does not check out any Internet forums on canyoneering let alone follow them closely.

I disagree.... I meet very few canyoneers out in the field that don't follow the canyon forums casually or occasionally. I agree that the majority don't follow them closely. Canyoneers that don't follow the forums at least casually tend to be found most often in the newbie trade routes.

I do know for fact that if you have an important message you need to get out to canyoneers, say something along the lines of access or safety, if you post it in the various forums the message will filter through the community in a very short time. That alone should demonstrate the powers of the forums.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Sombeech]

There will be debate concerning the percentage of the canyoneering community that visits an online community for either communication, beta, or a google search brought them there.

It may also be debatable, of the community that utilizes the internet for the sport, the number of return visitors to those online resources.

But of the online domestic canyoneering resources, it is not difficult to conclude that bogley serves the widest and broadest spectrum of canyoneers compared to the other communities. The conclusion isn't solely from the beginners to experts posting here, nor is it from the constant stream of new users joining up, nor is it by bogley threads topping the google keyword searches for the majority of topics. Nor is it from the continuing number of folks asking questions and getting answers, or inviting strangers to join up for a canyon and meeting up, new route ideas, land preservation discussions, securing and keeping route access open, or the lost and found camera/gear success stories here.

Alone, it's not because those who accuse bogley of being some small fringe group, actually browse bogley more than the average guest, but wait and spend their posting time looking for controversial threads like these and pass up the daily trip reports, technical threads and general canyon chit chat. When somebody makes a semi annual appearance only to argue and then in turn blames it on bogley because we foster that environment, I'm curious why those angry people don't post more often since this is their cup of tea.

And it's not solely because of the amount of visitors constantly online, number of threads and posts, and various statistics behind the scenes. It's not because we do not require registration to view these resources either.

And i would hate to say it's just because of the forum software we use too, indicating that if anybody purchases this software then it's an automatic recipe for success.

But it's a combination of these and many other details that have stood the test of time, the evidence is clear that if you want to communicate something to the canyoneering community, bogley is THE PLACE to do it.

But to think that because certain veteran canyoneers (fitting the term of "a very very small subset") choose not to post here does not in ANY way mean that bogley is not the greatest resource online for the canyoneering community. It also means something when those that have other favorite sites, continue to browse bogley.

Nothing wrong with that! I am in NO WAY attacking those that choose only to browse bogley. We welcome you to continue doing so. But we also invite you to participate. If you feel that conversations are usually swayed by the wrong influential people, please join in and provide some balance.

Thanks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[spinesnaper]

I should be watching the Super Bowl but instead I am reading this stupid thread. Got to be something wrong.

[jman]

Back in the permit window ("camping" all out night type of thing) days, I would ask people where they were from (most from California) and what canyons they were doing (mostly subway, mystery, and pinecreek) and most soid they found out about canyoneering by seeing pics online from canyoneering USA. It seems like for people new to the sport, they would hit Toms website first (which is the best thing I think). But it seems like the veteran canyoneers knew about Bogley, Backcountrypost, and Yahoo Canyons group.

People flock to websites where the activity is. Bogley is active, and very active when there is drama (loved Brian in SLC we don't want no drama vid...ha ha).

[Iceaxe]

I know if you lose a camera or other gear there is a high probability it will be found and returned if you make a post in that regards on bogley. I'd say that tells you really a lot about the number of Canyoneers that monitor bogley to some degree.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Except when I left my ascender (along with my buddies aider) in Imlay right on top of a pothole.

:(

But then again, total price for all the left gear was like $100 so I can see why someone would keep it...

[yetigonecrazy]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large. you said it yourself, you don't know me...

but you are right, i don't offer beta for free. i ask people to pay for it, by being a nice person, and by being the kind of person i'd like to share a campfire with, and not posting it online. i have a variety of motivations for this. you may consider those motivations noble or not, i won't defend them anymore at this point.

however, let me ask you this, why is there no uproar when someone posts asking for beta, and they are referred to a site that requires one to PAY for it with cash? if your issue is that you don't want to make a deal, then i hope you don't buy beta from elitists who sell it.

if you expect this all to be a level playing field, then let's do it. let's make all beta open source.

i propose we level the playing field. just to start, let's pick 100 canyons to release publicly for free, no strings attached. i'd also be interested to hear ways you personally could contribute to this project? i highly doubt this whole thing will work if the community just expects 5 people to share all their beta publicly, but no one else brings anything else to the effort.

so let's brainstorm. how do we level the playing field?

First, I'm not confusing the majority of Bogley with a small group; it's actually quite evident really what is going on. There is a large pool of people out there who are willing to share what beta they have, for free, because of a mutual interest in the sport. This is the majority of canyoneers. There is also a much smaller subset of canyoneers who DO NOT give out beta, and keep it to themselves and release it only under certain circumstances. This is a small, subset group of canyoneers. No mistaking that here.

Second, your comparison to pay sites isn't legit, because of a couple reasons. The first is what happens AFTER a canyon is done, or the beta is transferred. If I buy beta from someone, then yes, in a way I am feeing into an elitist attitude. But, when I buy beta from someone, after the money has been exchanged and the beta has been placed in my hands, thats it. No one has to hold my hand and show me a canyon. If I want to make copies of maps and give them to my friends, then I can. If I want to talk about a canyon I bought beta for, I can. Now with a "show-don't-tell" canyon....A) I would NEVER be given a map and told "go find it", the only way in is having your hand held by someone else. B ) I can't tell people about that canyon, nor can I make maps and tell others, because of a silly "oath" or something.... and C ) I can't share beta about that canyon because people will be demanding that I take that information down. So even though I may SEE a canyon with show-don't-tell, I am still under mega restrictions after. Restrictions that do NOT come with buying beta. So I don't see your comparison, sorry. People who sell beta may be "elitist" because they are selling beta, but the intimidation factor and the shroud of secrecy that comes around for the S-D-T crowd is a whole lot worse. Beta sites simply say: we will sell you beta if you have the money. SDT crowds say: we will show you (but not just tell you) BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE WORTHY. What I want to find a canyon on my own, like you did, and I just need a point in the right direction? What if I want to find an obscure canyon but don't want to go with people holding my hand? It takes some balls to set yourself up as the decider of who goes in and who doesn't, considering most canyons are on PUBLIC land. So who is elitist, the person who makes a little money but lets you make your own mind up and treats you with respect? Or someone who doesn't think you can make your own decisions, views you as basically incompetent, and requires someone more "experienced" to escort them? Pretty clear cut division there in my mind....

Your proposal to level the field is admirable, but unfortunately it's a flawed idea. You are absolutely right, there is a select group of people who hold the beta from a large crowd, and that is because that small group are the ones that found most of these. Here's the problem: most of the people that found them, most of the people who do holds lots of beta, are people who enjoy jobs, living situations, and financial flexibility to have the ability to go off and explore slot canyons fifty or more days a year. I'm sure if we all lived in Mt. Carmel Jct, and had a job selling outdoor gear, then all of us would go in these canyons more. I'm sure if more of us had been in Southern Utah in the 70's and 80's that we would all have more canyons under our belts. But we don't. And when folks get denied beta, there is a certain ideal of "you weren't here when we started, so why should we share beta with you?" In a perfect world, it would be great if each person had 100 canyons to bring to party. Bottom line, not many people do, and that is again because of where we are or what we do. Sure, it's easy for you to say "just post some ebta about a canyon you have and I will do the same", but really it's kind of classless because you KNOW the average joe doesn't have the beta you do. Thats why people are asking in the first place! So unless you can go back in time and magically let us all start crawling over SE Utah in the 70's and 80's, then there isn't much we CAN do to level the field. So it's kind of a dickish move to even suggest that in the first place. Of course I don't have a whole portfolio of canyons to bring to the table. I live in Colorado, and I've only been canyoneering for five years. No, I don't have 100 obscure canyons to briing to the table. I doubt there are many that can short of the small, previously identified subset of canyoneers. It's kind of funny how you guys put people like me in situations..."sure, we'll tell you about canyons if you tell us about canyons". Its like trying to get credit when you have no credit. You need canyons to get into more canyons but you cant get into canyons because you dont have any canyons.......See my point?

The last thing I want to talk about is beta.....I'm saying this over and over and frankly, I'm getting sick of saying it: when we (people like Bob, Levi, me, etc) ask for beta on a canyon, why is there a sudden belief amongst people like yourselves that we want a step-by-step, FULL trip report with a hundred pictures? It's actually quite the opposite, and Bob said it perfectly, "I like descents with minimal beta". "MINIMAL". Not a full, play by play guidebook. Just the basics. So before you off talking about "revealing 100 canyons", let's meet in the middle: next time I ask about the Allen Dump slots....don't worry about giving me a full page of beta. Just say "oh, two of em are ok, some raps. one has potholes, bring a 300' rope". DONE. Is that so hard? We're not asking you to give us play by plays for canyons. It would just be nice to ask a question and not be met with crickets. "Oh that canyon? 5 raps, none bigger than 100'. Bring the wetsuit." God, was that so hard??? How about when a picture gets posted of an obscure canyon, and someone asks where. You don't have to lie and make up some bullshoi name like, "oh yeah, that's...Turkey....Masturbater....Canyon"......Lik ewise, you don't have to give a punch by punch breakdown. "What's that?" "Oh that? That's the MiddleBranch of the Left Fork of ______ Wash". You don't have to publish beta or info.......even having just a name is enough to get people interested. A lot of you from the SDT subset seem to equate us asking for beta as a demand for a full TR, the sooner you guys understand we are looking for WAAAAAAY less than that, the sooner you realize sharing one sentence might not be a bad idea.

I, and as far as I know, no one else, is making you do anything. I don't think you need to reveal 100 canyons or anything. I think the biggest problem most people are frustrated with is being met by crickets when asking questions about canyons, when it's crystal clear there ARE people out there who have PLENTY of information about said canyons, and still nothing. Again, we are NOT expecting full TRs. But it would sure be nice to hear even just one sentence about something, sometime......

[2065toyota]

As I see it, of the people doing canyons there are only a select few who are frustrated with the amount of published beta and the ability to obtain new information. Those that are complaining seem to be digging their own grave.

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeti, this concept is really really really simple, you can justify it all you want. but if you are expecting help from someone on an obscure slot, all you have to do is ask nice. that's it. end of story.

not all answers will be provided on bogley. some will be freely given via email. some will freely give you the longest length rappel (like i did on my own website with micro-death), but not a gps coordinate. some will give you a trailhead but not longest rappel. some will freely give, but under a show-not-tell arrangement. and some will be crickets altogether, for a variety of reasons.

however, it should be clear that no one is under any OBLIGATION to answer any of your questions, at any time, just because you asked. if you ask a question on bogley, and it goes unanswered, stomping and yelling about elitists and blood oaths and shrouds of secrecy only makes it so the very people who are likely to have your answer are going to leave altogether. it makes you look like an entitled chump who thinks everything should be given to him just because he said so, just because he wants it his way.

i'm not really aware of anyone who isn't happy to share. but faulting us for sharing on OUR conditions instead of YOURS? sounds pretty crazy. in no other real world situation am i aware of this type of mentality being successful or even tolerated. do you complain to your employer because you want to work only the hours that are convenient for you? do you complain when you can't figure out the secret fishing hole of people who get to fish more than you? do you complain about the backcountry skier who is actively trying to find new creative lines, and then doesn't publish all his beta on a public forum? do you complain when your buddy is more outgoing than you, and picks up a few girls phone numbers at a party? and then yell and scream because he won't share their phone numbers with you? if someone has what you want, ask them in a way that they would be happy to help.

so, i'll say it again. want help? ask nice. consider your methods. be cool. bring something to the table yourself. and you'll probably get exactly what you want.

[yetigonecrazy]

I never said you, or anyone, were under any sort of obligation (mine or yours) to do diddly squat. You're the one who suggested leveling the playing field, I merely suggested my idea in return, and explained my thought process behind that.

And it's funny you say "ask nice"....been there, tried that.......Why do you think it's an issue to me? Multiple people (not just me....) have asked about things before, in polite manners, and crickets.....Look, I understand that maybe you don't want to post stuff openly on Bogley, I get that, but how hard is it to hit that PM button? Or ask for an email? This is part of my issue- I've tried playing it the way you've described, and it's got me nowhere. I've had one (1) person really sit down and fire up a conversation with me. Out of....a dozen attempts? On canyons that are really in the big picture mundane. You say ask nice, I say answer one of the dozen or so questions I've already asked, nicely.......Otherwise let's agree to disagree and we will go about our separate ways. Because otherwise we are just

[Iceaxe]

i'm not really aware of anyone who isn't happy to share. but faulting us for sharing on OUR conditions instead of YOURS? sounds pretty crazy.

Some how you seem to miss the entire discussion... but that's nothing new for you... so let me set the record straight... no one really gives a shit about what beta you have or how you care to dispense it. Do with your beta as you wish.

The problem occurs when attempts are made to stifle beta circulating outside of your little circle jerk that you somehow believe is your dominion.

Take this thread for example.... a guy asks for beta on Sad Cow, so why are you even posting if you are not helping?

[CarpeyBiggs]

Some how you seem to miss the entire discussion... but that's nothing new for you... so let me set the record straight... no one really gives a shit about what beta you have or how you care to dispense it. Do with your beta as you wish.

The problem occurs when attempts are made to stifle beta circulating outside of your little circle jerk that you somehow believe is your dominion.

Take this thread for example.... a guy asks for beta on Sad Cow, so why are you even posting if you are not helping?

levi got exactly what he asked for, which is an explanation of the picture he posted and a general area to concentrate his efforts. i connected with him off-site, told him the photo he posted is the key piece of the puzzle, and told him i'd be happy to do that canyon with him, if he is interested.

it was actually slot machine who was giving the bad beta, and treating levi inappropriately.

that said, i am curious what specific instances of stifling beta you are referring to. if someone goes out and finds a canyon on their own, and posts it up, they will likely be applauded, i know i will. doing the research, scouting the canyon, putting together a competent team to safely descend it is a lot work, and gets my respect. pretty sure that's what it's all about. however, looking at a satellite image and then posting demanding beta is not "research" and will likely not get a response from myself. if you want to put in some work to go do it, i'll help you out. but i'm not going to just give away anything just because someone posted a waypoint and said "what's this!"

i'm aware of a few situations where a canyon has been "outed" by an individual for particularly malicious reasons, and the people who gave the beta are then offended, and make attempts to stifle the publishing of it. particularly the case with a few canyons in arizona. but i don't know of anything on bogley where someone has gone out and done a canyon, posted a TR of it, and then got berated for it. i imagine it has happened, but i can't think of any off the top of my head. seems to be a common theme in these threads that it is happening ALL THE TIME.

please link me to a few of these situations you are referencing. i'm happy to address specifics, if you would like to.

now, if your argument is that people lack tact, or are occasionally offensive, i'll agree with you. we all make comments we tend to regret at some point, and sometimes emotions get heated, i've been guilty of that many times, no doubt. i take canyoneering pretty seriously, almost to a fault. it IS what i do. and many of my friends. so we tend to let emotion get the better part of reason, on occasion. particularly when we are constantly mischaracterized publicly on a forum.

but suggesting there is a common theme of bullying someone to take down a canyon they did on their own? sounds like much more of an exception rather than a rule.