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Thread: beta for sad cow disease ?

  1. #81

    Re: beta for sad cow disease ?

    Quote Originally Posted by levifackrell View Post


    MISSING: due to the little to no info on this canyon i am calling a bogley wide search for it along with a beta.
    INFO : Escalante?
    So Levi, to me this seemed like a nice way of asking for beta. I'm curious, is that all it took? Did you get what you were looking for?

    I'm not asking that you publish your newfound beta by any means, i just hope that "asking nicely" is all it took, that hopefully somebody contacted you via private message, email, Facebook chat, or secret handshake around the coveted campfire.

    If you did get what you were looking for, it's a proven point that bogley is THE PLACE to pose the question, and the answers will come through various channels.

    If you didn't get any info and are hearing crickets in private, then this disproves the point made at least 3X in this thread that all you have to do is ask nicely.

    I hope you get the info you are looking for, and this is not a request to publish that data, but only to see what the result was.

    Thanks and good luck.


    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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  3. #82

    Re: beta for sad cow disease ?

    Oops, i missed Dan's response by minutes. That's great you got some info. Bogley is the place to start.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  4. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    And it's funny you say "ask nice"....been there, tried that.......Why do you think it's an issue to me? Multiple people (not just me....) have asked about things before, in polite manners, and crickets.....Look, I understand that maybe you don't want to post stuff openly on Bogley, I get that, but how hard is it to hit that PM button? Or ask for an email? This is part of my issue- I've tried playing it the way you've described, and it's got me nowhere. I've had one (1) person really sit down and fire up a conversation with me. Out of....a dozen attempts? On canyons that are really in the big picture mundane. You say ask nice, I say answer one of the dozen or so questions I've already asked, nicely.......Otherwise let's agree to disagree and we will go about our separate ways. Because otherwise we are just
    yeti, i can only speak to myself. but i don't see every thread posted in this forum. if you think i can help you, send me an email. often times someone will contact me via email when there is a thread of particular interest, like this one, and i'll check it out. i've spent almost all my time in the last two years in the Grand Canyon, so that's where my current interest lies. recently, i tend to spend my time on other forums more directly related to that area.

    as i said previously, consider your methods. asking for beta in a public forum will often not get a public response, especially if the canyon might be sensitive. it's not my job to find your questions and answer them. if you want my personal opinion, contact me in a way you know i will see it. sorry you get no response sometimes, it'll happen. just the way it is.

    to be honest, i have no idea who you are, if we've ever met in person, nor do i honestly recall seeing any of your previous posts for information, or interacting with you in any way. i'm not trying to be rude, just trying to say this place is somewhat anonymous, and my level of interest in places like this ebbs and flows, especially when very few of my friends participate anymore. so thinking a post on bogley should get answered every time, even if you asked nice, is not realistic. consider your methods, and send me a private email on anything, guarantee i'll see it. same probably goes for anyone else who is active in this realm. i'll provide the information that i'm comfortable doing, within reason, and within the commitments that i have on certain beta as well. and if i can't tell you, i'll probably politely tell you why, but i won't do it publicly.

    anyways, hope that makes sense.

    btw - the reason you haven't heard much about allen dump slots is because there's not much to know. at least, from what i know. which doesn't necessarily mean anything. my intuition tells they have the characteristics of a fault line canyon, with no obvious watercourse carving in them, that generally makes slots interesting and beautiful. however, that said, faults can be beautiful too. and you can't tell much if anything from a satellite image. gotta go see it in person. sounds like a cool project, let me know if you want to go check 'em out. also sounds like a perfect type of thing to report back to the community. that is, if you WANT to.


  5. #84
    ....it's also hard to know who's been where and who to ask about what when people are unwilling to talk in the first place. That's why you have to throw a blanket out on the Public Forum and hope for the best.

    Anywho, I'm sorry for not being clearer, I wasn't referencing you specifically but speaking generalities to those who stifle beta when there isn't much a need for it.

    It all makes sense, I do see your point. You make it sound so easy.....I just really wish it was. But it's not.

    Hope you have a great day and stay safe out there.

  6. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    ....it's also hard to know who's been where and who to ask about what when people are unwilling to talk in the first place. That's why you have to throw a blanket out on the Public Forum and hope for the best.
    This is precisely why bogley is the best place to start asking questions, it's near impossible to know who has information on an unpublished canyon, only educated guesses on who to contact personally. But then how to contact them? Maybe somebody else has even better information from their trip last weekend. Maybe somebody other than the preferred contact knows the route and is even available this weekend to show it to them.

    Along the subject of asking for beta, I strongly disagree that asking the question "does anybody have info on this canyon" should be defined as "demanding beta".

    If person X asks a group if they have info, and asks follow up questions because of the lack of response, I don't know what is wrong with that. If person X knows that person Y has info and asks him for it, I still wouldn't call that demanding unless he specifically asks "why won't you give it to me". I admit I haven't read every request for beta, but from what I have, @Slot Machine has not "demanded" beta from any specific person. He may have asked the question on why a canyon was private, or the thread got into the whole Show Don't Tell debate, but I haven't seen where Bob demanded the beta specifically from somebody he knew had it. From what I saw he was just asking for the info and seeing if anybody could throw him a bone. I think he may have been mocking the SDT side, but to define that as Demanding Beta like a selfish entitled child doesn't really match up.

    He also appeared a little short with Levi, and that was somewhat rectified later, but that still has nothing to do with Bob demanding beta. In fact Bob was the first to assist Levi.

  7. #86
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    ... let's meet in the middle: next time I ask about the Allen Dump slots....don't worry about giving me a full page of beta. Just say "oh, two of em are ok, some raps. one has potholes, bring a 300' rope".
    So Sorry, Crazy Yeti.

    When you asked about the Allen Dump slots, I should have said:

    I explored the most promising looking one, and it was a dud. 300' rappel to get in. Dirty with loose rock. A few nuisance rappels going downcanyon. Heavy brush at the bottom of the canyon. The best part of the day was the hike back up the buttress to get back to the top.

    The reason I did not say that in response to your beta request was because I had already published this obscure, dud of a canyon in a Latest Rave, which you said you had already read. And which seems to be the extent of the community's knowledge of the Allen Dump slots.

    As far as I know, no one has gone out and looked at these things, because they are just creases. There is no conspiracy to keep them under the radar. As far as I know, there is nothing to hide. But they are in plain sight, so... if you want... go check them out. Have fun. Report back on how they are, or not, as you wish.

    What was your upset again?

    Tom (who never-ever shares beta on canyons, except for all the ones I share beta on)

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  9. #87
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    He also appeared a little short with Levi, and that was somewhat rectified later, but that still has nothing to do with Bob demanding beta. In fact Bob was the first to assist Levi.
    Bob assisted Levi?

    Really? In what way?

    By picking out some random canyons within 100 miles of the requested canyon, and suggesting they might be the canyon?

    I don't really think that is assisting Levi. In fact, given Levi's youth and inexperience, he might have been led to the conclusion that Bob actually knew something, and gone into these slots, the little Baker slots, expecting to find Sad Cow, and got himself in a mess a trouble. Thankfully, Levi was a little smarter than that.

    Ram and I have talked with Levi, and are trying to match schedules to get him into Sad Cow.

    Tom

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  11. #88

    Re: beta for sad cow disease ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Bob assisted Levi?

    Really? In what way?
    ...was the first to assist.

    So if he isn't 100% correct he shouldn't even speak? If Levi would have geared up and hit those canyons by Bobs first post alone, that would have been bad news. But the dude was obviously trying to help. Hell, you can't blame him for being under the impression that nobody else was communicating with Levi in private. He at least helped build the conversation on where this canyon could be. True it seemed to get a little out of hand but Bob was right there up front trying to offer some assistance, even if he didn't zero in on the canyon.

    I would make a friendly suggestion that if anybody asks a question online and isn't getting a public answer, but in reality is getting plenty of help sideband, to make a quick post saying "PM sent". This would prevent a lot of people from thinking the poor dude just isn't getting any help and that the people who have the beta are just a bunch of dicks. LOL. ...which was not the case at all and it's great that you guys could help him out. Although I'm not a canyoneer and hence pretty neutral on the SDT issue, it would help the SDT side build some friendly PR

    :D

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  12. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    So Levi, to me this seemed like a nice way of asking for beta. I'm curious, is that all it took? Did you get what you were looking for?
    first off thanks for making my forum one of the most popular forums. who would have thought that just asking nice could work ( along with getting yelled at by slot machine ) and would get you a general location of the canyon. but that is very little help seeing that i don't have experience in the back country of Utah and no i will not share the general location ( show don't tell )
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Bob assisted Levi?

    Really? In what way?

    By picking out some random canyons within 100 miles of the requested canyon, and suggesting they might be the canyon?

    I don't really think that is assisting Levi. In fact, given Levi's youth and inexperience, he might have been led to the conclusion that Bob actually knew something, and gone into these slots, the little Baker slots, expecting to find Sad Cow, and got himself in a mess a trouble. Thankfully, Levi was a little smarter than that.

    Ram and I have talked with Levi, and are trying to match schedules to get him into Sad Cow.

    Tom
    thanks tom for the invite i'm excited for the trip. my inner engineer is kicking in and i'm starting to notice small details with pictures. i'm starting to meet people telling me to join ACA. maybe one day ill become a pro like you tom...

  13. #90
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post

    So if he isn't 100% correct he shouldn't even speak?
    Yes, 0% is not the same as 100%.

    Perhaps my standards of what constitutes beta are rather high. Dan was just complaining about that (privately).

    Tom

  14. #91
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post

    I would make a friendly suggestion that if anybody asks a question online and isn't getting a public answer, but in reality is getting plenty of help sideband, to make a quick post saying "PM sent". This would prevent a lot of people from thinking the poor dude just isn't getting any help and that the people who have the beta are just a bunch of dicks. LOL. ...which was not the case at all and it's great that you guys could help him out.
    It's good to see that the standard has evolved.

    It used to be that I was a dick if I did not post publicly every canyon I did immediately. I've tried to adapt to this standard:

    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...heart-of-zion/
    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...ell-sept-2012/
    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...first-descent/

    but, quite frankly it is a very high standard! I know it often appears otherwise, but I do have a job, and already a huge list of things not getting done.

    Now it appears I'm only a dick if when someone asks a question about a canyon, I DON'T immediately contact them sideband, rearrange my schedule and, not knowing anything about them, their skills or their reliability, take them on a trip.

    Good to know. I look forward to the further evolution of the 'dick' standard.

    Tom

  15. #92

    Re: beta for sad cow disease ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Dan was just complaining about that (privately).
    ROFL

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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  17. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    ROFL

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    Too be a fly on the wall in the secret A-team headquarters. That's gotta be worth at least a nickel.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  18. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Too be a fly on the wall in the secret A-team headquarters. That's gotta be worth at least a nickel.

    Would that be a limestone bat cave off some undisclosed canyon near Mt. Carmel Utah?

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  20. #95
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Would that be a limestone bat cave off some undisclosed canyon near Mt. Carmel Utah?
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh. It's SECRET!


  21. #96

    Re: beta for sad cow disease ?

    I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

    Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

    Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

    I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

    Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.

    Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

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  23. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    But, when I buy beta from someone, after the money has been exchanged and the beta has been placed in my hands, thats it. If I want to make copies of maps and give them to my friends, then I can. If I want to talk about a canyon I bought beta for, I can. Now with a "show-don't-tell" canyon....A) I would NEVER be given a map and told "go find it", the only way in is having your hand held by someone else. B ) I can't tell people about that canyon, nor can I make maps and tell others, because of a silly "oath" or something.... and C ) I can't share beta about that canyon because people will be demanding that I take that information down. So even though I may SEE a canyon with show-don't-tell, I am still under mega restrictions after. Restrictions that do NOT come with buying beta. So I don't see your comparison, sorry. People who sell beta may be "elitist" because they are selling beta, but the intimidation factor and the shroud of secrecy that comes around for the S-D-T crowd is a whole lot worse. Beta sites simply say: we will sell you beta if you have the money.
    interesting comparison, yeti, but not all beta sellers would necessarily allow you to post their beta in a webforum. they may even go as far as having it removed from the webforum.

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  25. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    interesting comparison, yeti, but not all beta sellers would necessarily allow you to post their beta in a webforum. they may even go as far as having it removed from the webforum.
    Agreed, fully. But that is why I only buy beta from people who WONT do that. Easy enough.

  26. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
    Agreed, fully. But that is why I only buy beta from people who WONT do that. Easy enough.
    except it happens. on this very forum. moderators have redirected links to commercial beta.

  27. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

    Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

    Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

    I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

    Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.
    thank you shane, for now making it all abundantly clear.

    everyone in this community has treated you as a friend. even in the last 10 years, many canyons have been shared with you, i've been on trips with your friends who are there getting beta FOR you. which is fine, we get it, and many of us don't even have an issue with it, until you use it all to maliciously portray as you do on this forum. many canyons have been given to you under the show don't tell agreement, and you have shown you only are willing to keep that commitment, until it results in cash in your pocket.

    but now that you've spelled out exactly what your goals and interests are, i encourage everyone to consider what is really going on here, and why you continue to perpetuate this drama. it results in cash in your pocket, and a petty war for your selfish reasons. any concept of "for the community" is absurd, given this reply. it's all about you.

    at least you've finally admitted it.

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