Anchor and Rope responsibility

[Kuya]

Very, VERY scary.

May I suggest it is inappropriate for YOU to take kids into the Wilderness when you lack the ability to descend canyons under anticipated conditions. It is not OUR job to make sure the canyon is bolted down to a level that your limited skills allow you to traverse it safely - it IS YOUR JOB to have the skills to descend canyons in the conditions likely to be found, which includes with the bolts removed. If you take kids into canyons without these skills, you are recklessly endangering those under your care.

What Council are you in? What are your Council's requirements for taking kids technical canyoneering?

May I suggest: Dark Horse Leadership

(801) 853-8593 (Website is not up at the moment).

And yes, I am harshing on you, Kuya.That is MY job. Baptist Draw is a beginner-friendly canyon without the bolts. One thing I learned in Scouts is to adapt to the natural environment, not to change the environment to accommodate my dainty derrierre.

Tom

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon? This post is not about my skills, I need not have to prove my qualifications to you, but my point was that if the bolts are left it makes that canyon "scout friendly" meaning that it conforms to the guidelines outlined in the BSA Topping Out manual.

having done Baptist a few times now, to take them through baptist draw with or without those bolts would not be an issue for us. There are some obvious natural anchors at the last rappel which I would be happy use in order to rig a safe rappel. But as you are aware, the canyoneering regulations in the UNP Council are a bit vague. But the Topping Out manual asks that there be at least a two point anchor and best if it is 3 for rappelling activities. Baptist draw has that!! so It makes it easier to conform to the BSA climbing/ rappelling regulations.

That is all I am saying. by leaving those bolts it makes it easier for me to conform to the BSA rules for managing a climbing/rappeling program in that canyon.

[Iceaxe]

Yank the bolts in Baptist. If you do not have the ability to descend Baptist without bolts you do not have the skills required to canyoneer safely.

With regards to the bolt in Zero G, if it is the same bolt I know of it was placed by SAR during a rescue and was not placed to dumb the canyon down.

I'm not sure what to think about SAR bolts as I haven't given it much thought. Just off the top of my head I'm inclined to leave them as they were not placed to gumby up the canyon and will speed up future rescues.... thoughts?

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon?

Your statement that Baptist would be more beginner-friendly with some randomly placed bolts, causes me to suspect your skills.

Do you have the BSA Canyoneering Leader certification?

Tom

[ratagonia]

Yank the bolts in Baptist. If you do not have the ability to descend Baptist without bolts you do not have the skills required to canyoneer safely.

With regards to the bolt in Zero G, if it is the same bolt I know of it was placed by SAR during a rescue and was not placed to dumb the canyon down.

I'm not sure what to think about SAR bolts as I haven't given it much thought. Just off the top of my head I'm inclined to leave them as they were not placed to gumby up the canyon and will speed up future rescues.... thoughts?

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Zion-SAR has a few in Pine Creek, that they would prefer be left in place, even though they are in an odd place. Even though I am pretty anti-bolt, I think we should also support our SAR teams...

Then again, capable SAR teams do rescues without putting in bolts, when possible.

And, some SAR teams are not allowed to use other people's bolts when doing rescues. So they require themselves to place new bolts rather than using ones already in place, when putting a client on rope.

Tom

[Kuya]

Your statement that Baptist would be more beginner-friendly with some randomly placed bolts, causes me to suspect your skills.

Do you have the BSA Canyoneering Leader certification?

Tom

The BSA Canyoneering Leader Cert is not offered in the UNP council, that I am aware of. (If i'm not mistaken that is a GSL Council cert)

and i have made no such statement about the canyon being a "beginner friendly" canyon with "randomly" placed bolts. I have mentioned that it is a "scout friendly" canyon. and it is only scout friendly cuz it has 3 bolts to use as an anchor for that last rappel, which means it conforms to the BSA rules outlined in Topping Out.

[ratagonia]

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon?

... But the Topping Out manual asks that there be at least a two point anchor and best if it is 3 for rappelling activities. Baptist draw has that!! so It makes it easier to conform to the BSA climbing/ rappelling regulations.

That is all I am saying. by leaving those bolts it makes it easier for me to conform to the BSA rules for managing a climbing/rappeling program in that canyon.

These statements, too, call into doubt your abilities to take scouts through a canyon.

I believe you can get a two or three-point anchor for your scouts in Baptist, easily. What I see is that it is INCONVENIENT for you to conform to the local ethic. This is a poor attitude to transfer to your scouts - kinda the opposite of what scouting is supposed to teach kids.

Tom

[canyondevil]

Kuya- what about the first rap in Baptist? How do you get around the BSA three anchor rule on that one? Or are there 3 bolts with chains there also?

Nothing says wilderness like this:

[Kuya]

OH wow. Pick on Kuya day today!

I still don't see how my remarks in this thread call into question my canyoneering abilities. Nevertheless, you are right Tom. It would merely be an inconvenience if the bolts are removed.

Really I am all for descending canyons by using natural anchors and if the ones in Baptist are removed, so-be-it. We will manage still and have a great time. And still be grateful for people like you who freely provide the beta that allows people like me to access canyons.

My original purpose was to make known my feelings to Canyon Devil to reconsider ripping out the bolts.

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

I apologize if my "feeling" that way makes you angry.

[Kuya]

Kuya- what about the first rap in Baptist? How do you get around the BSA three anchor rule on that one? Or are there 3 bolts with chains there also?

You mean that 15' "downclimb"?

[ratagonia]

...
I apologize if my "feeling" that way makes you angry.

The Interwebs - a Powerful Tool for Miss-communication!

No anger involved, merely concern.

Tom

[Kuya]

The Interwebs - a Powerful Tool for Miss-communication!

Isn't that the truth!

[canyondevil]

No, I am referring to this drop, (from Tom's beta):
"Eventually it drops about 30 feet, demanding a rappel off slings around a pinch or rock bollard."
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/image...aptistDraw.pdf

If the safety of the scouts is really what you are concerned about, I sure hope you arent making them downclimb that.

[Kuya]

No, I am referring to this drop, (from Tom's beta):
"Eventually it drops about 30 feet, demanding a rappel off slings around a pinch or rock bollard."
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/image...aptistDraw.pdf

If the safety of the scouts is really what you are concerned about, I sure hope you arent making them downclimb that.

hehehe A "downclimb" protected by a rope J/K that is why I put the word "downclimb" in quotation marks.

Anyway, I'm assuming you are talking about this short rappel (start at 1:49 in the video)



of course, if it is a BSA climbing/rappelling activity all rappels would need to be rigged with a redundant anchor and protected with either a Top Belay (if using one strand of rope) or or Fireman Belay (if using double strands).

[Mojave Silence]

I've been trying to train him, and give HIM and his FAMILY access to their own backyards (canyons) and seeing what he's missing. Now he is very interested. Everything at first, made him feel unsafe. However the moment I mention bolts, redundancy, fall protection, etc.. etc.. he's considering it.
.

Is that the dude that BBQ's up a mean chicken ?

[Renatomic808]

Is that the dude that BBQ's up a mean chicken ?

Yeah.. "dat guy". He lives there.. he deserves to play there.

[ratagonia]

of course, if it is a BSA climbing/rappelling activity all rappels would need to be rigged with a redundant anchor and protected with either a Top Belay (if using one strand of rope) or or Fireman Belay (if using double strands).

Fun video.

One comment: http://thecrashreel.com/

More specifically, you might try this page:

http://thecrashreel.com/?page_id=16

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Loved the video! Wow, the thread that keeps livin'! ;-)

Kuya - thanks for being positive and acting on Tom's comments (on a public forum). Tom's, mine, yours, and many others write one thing while we intended something a bit different. Just the nature of this type of communication.

You acknowledged a couple of important, and critical points. One point, we all share (well...hopefully all - but for sure most), is that good, clean canyon ethics in canyons should be followed. When others stray, or may be perceived to stray, from that (i.e. placing unnecessary bolts), it causes frustration. I can see how some comments could be perceived as being lazy and passing on poor practices. To remain silent to such would be a disservice. Second, when it comes to BSA rules (as I know you know) any leader needs to be mindful of the responsibility and risk they take on. I've mentioned this a while ago in some previous threads.

Before joining "the canyoneering community" a couple of years ago, I also took scouts on climbing/canyon/rappelling trips out of a spirit of volunteering and trying to do good will for some great kids. However, I've since learned that if someone got hurt, the BSA would leave me "on my own". There are some very specific rules and certs you need (well ... some argue the rules are still ambiguous). So, unfortunately, I'm not doing these types of trips for the scouts here right now until I can get those. (And hopefully soon).

Two objectives. First, that when constructive points come out in this forum, that they are taken in a learning way so we can all improve or be reminded. When others silently read these threads, then plan to do a canyon, just perhaps these core principles will be remembered, take seed, and be adhered to. I see some very positive good from that. And second, that it doesn't push others away from posting or wanting to join the forum. I feel it would be a tragedy to diminish the community to only a few people out of fear of being "reprimanded" from a post. Don't be afraid to share your thoughts, ask for help, help others, and be open to the better.

[airman]

... but my point was that if the bolts are left it makes that canyon "scout friendly" meaning that it conforms to the guidelines outlined in the BSA Topping Out manual

BSA standards require bolts and hangars to be UIAA or CE rated. I haven't been through Baptist, but judging from the three bolt photo (foto?), I doubt that is a rated setup.

... the canyoneering regulations in the UNP Council are a bit vague.

True. But if your troop is an LDS sponsored unit, the requirements imposed by the First Presidency for high risk activities (such as canyoneering) are not vague. These activities must be led by a "trained or certified guide." http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...g.pdf?lang=eng. If you are an LDS scout leader, I would have your leader check with the church risk management department to see if whatever training or certifications you have meet these requirements. Unless you are an insured professional guide or are a BSA Canyon Leader (through the Great Salt Lake Council) I'd suspect that it is unlikely that you meet these requirements. I don't speak for the LDS church or the BSA, so you need to independently verify everything I have stated in this regard.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but the requirements to take scouts canyoneering are rather lofty; appropriately so. I'd hate to see the consequences of someone getting hurt and the fallout that would result from not following the rules. I have seen too many untrained scout leaders out in the canyons (with good intentions I think), and it is very concerning to contemplate the risks that they are naively taking for themselves and others.

I know there is no ill intent here. I applaud the desire to provide youth the opportunity to experience challenging wilderness experiences. But let's think twice, use good judgment, and exercise an abundance of caution when someone entrusts their kid to our care and we undertake an activity under the auspices of charitable organizations.

Sorry to leak off the main thread topic, but I think this is an issue that deserves recurring attention.

[mzamp]

I have seen too many untrained scout leaders...

Reminds me of last September running into a scout troop coming down Picacho peak and the scout leader was struggling. Needless to say we topped out and caught him on the way back down sitting alone out of water and exhausted. I gave him my unopened water and took his pack from him which must have weighed over 50 pounds. My Rainier pack was lighter than his. Not sure what is required to carry as a scout leader, but for all I know he had a mini-keg in there.

[Kuya]

Very good information? Thanks for sharing Still I have a few questions/comments.

"BSA standards require bolts and hangars to be UIAA or CE rated. I haven't been through Baptist, but judging from the three bolt photo (foto?), I doubt that is a rated setup."

First, Your comment about bolts is true. Topping Out pg 100 suggests the following: "Every route for climbing and rappelling must feature fail-safe anchor points, preferably large, living trees or solid rock projections. If artifical protection must be installed, use bolts of at least 3/8-inch diameter approved for climbing purposes, and have them installed by a qualified expert approved by the council's climbing/rappelling committee."

and on page 64 it tells us that: Of the several types of bolts in common use today, only a UIAA- or CEN -approved bolt meets BSA Standards"


Now, having been further enlightened. Go ahead and yank out the bolts in Baptist draw! it will be easier to just use the natural anchors in the area .

True. But if your troop is an LDS sponsored unit, the requirements imposed by the First Presidency for high risk activities (such as canyoneering) are not vague. These activities must be led by a "trained or certified guide."

To quote again from the letter from the First Presidency: "Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained or certified guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases." (Bold and Italics added).

What do you make of the bolded statement? I am lead to believe that a Scout Climbing/rappelling program can be run by a local LDS troop who has leaders with the appropriate BSA certifications. According to the UNPC Website, in order to run a climbing/rappelling program A "qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course.


However, there is nothing to be said about canyoneering. Which is why I commented about the rules being vague.

I wish the UNPC would just adopt the GSLC's canyoneering program.