Anchor and Rope responsibility

[Kuya]

The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. I'm not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

[MrAdam]

My thoughts are, if seeing bolts make you angry, don't go into canyons with bolts

Shouldn't the opposite be true than? If you dont have the abilities or skill set to descend a canyon that was originally descended using only natural anchors, you and your bolt kit should stay at home.

... go into them with crowbars... I kid, I kid .

A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

[Mountaineer]

I think of the ettiquite as being, somebody felt they had the right to place them, and you/I have the right to remove them. The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. Im not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

Not drawing myself into the debate right now (i.e. I'm of the opinion that bolts should be used sparingly, but have their place)...., but if you remove bolts that people "count on" being there, at least we need to keep the communication open on what is happening. The Quandary direct section has a bolt or two that are critical for getting through IMO, and now you are saying that I need to either carry my bolt kit the next time I attack it or; learn/practice some additional skills and bring the appropriate people. Let's be safe and help each other.

Scars on the canyon walls are the next topic. They can look worse than a bolt.

[mzamp]

A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

I went through in October and I think only counted about 6 total. There are a few spots that if you are expecting a bolt and don't plan ahead someone could get stuck. I hope you didn't rip those out.

In general - Unless a bolt is not safe just leave it alone. If you rip them out the next time a bolt happy person goes through they will probably just rebolt it.

As a disclaimer - I have never installed a bolt anywhere.

[Kuya]

Shouldn't the opposite be true than? If you dont have the abilities or skill set to descend a canyon that was originally descended using only natural anchors, you and your bolt kit should stay at home.



A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

yes I agree I don't even own a bolt kit I just feel bad for the people whose lives are ruined when they see a bolt in a canyon

[Deathcricket]

Shouldn't the opposite be true than? If you dont have the abilities or skill set to descend a canyon that was originally descended using only natural anchors, you and your bolt kit should stay at home.



A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

Dude I agree! Unless you are elite like us and can afford to spend a half hour at each rap building a natural anchor and have mad skillz, stay the F out of our canyons. I get so offended when I see an unnatural bolt in nature. Way better to see a stack of rocks with some questionable webbing sticking out. There is no greater glory on this earth than unstacking and restacking a stack of rocks at each rap to make sure it meets my "standards". Every time I rip a bolt out with my crowbar I think to myself "Stupid noobs, how they gonna get down this now" and I cackle to myself maniacally as I force my will upon them.


In case you can't hear the end, my buddy says "it's deep enough to just jump" and you hear me yell "woot". Was so glad we didn't have to spend a half hour here troubleshooting a "natural anchor"

[Mountaineer]

Ok, my opinion thrown in. Bolt rarely, and only when absolutely critical. I also hate to see bolts when not needed. I think the debate occurs on how you define the when. Some argue never.

When pulling bolts, follow it by some patch work that blends "in". Any best practices or material to use for patching holes?

Perhaps this deserves another thread...way off topic now ;-)

[Slot Machine]

I think of the ettiquite as being, somebody felt they had the right to place them, and you/I have the right to remove them. The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. Im not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Baptist would be rebolted before your crowbar got cold. It's a trade route. Why bother?

But the others... I think they would be more worthwhile game, and quite interesting to attempt "clean".

Also, I heard that there was a bolt above the crux in Zero G. Did anyone take this out? Can I add this to your list CD?

[Renatomic808]

Time to go back on subject with Maui. I did some thinking, and I'd like to reiterate what Hawaii thinks.. the locals (me of course and friends who I am taking out.. and future interested parties).

This sport is VERY young in Maui. Though natural anchors are easy here, and it can be built, we prefer safety of bolts and peace of mind with bolts. It also reduces littering in canyons, as they are much more permanent. Webbing and other crap doesn't get washed all over the place. I'm in the helping the process of growing this sport to be culturally accepted by the locals.

We do not have any form of SAR with canyons here. This is also something i'm reaching out with our Maui Fire department. Apparently myself, and Dave Black and maybe 1 or 2 others, are the only ones who can find someone and help rescue. One wrong move (bad injury or death) would cause this sport to fall behind a few years. In order for the locals AND state to approve, they need a high demand for it, and extreme safety.

Rebuild those anchors that look sketchy. If a route needs to be "bolted' for peace of mind (especially by those with authority) then let's rebolt it.

If fixed lines are looking bad, leave a note at LEAST to mention the integrity of them.. though the best bet is to replace them.

Again, this is a VERY small canyoneering community on Maui. I'm trying to connect with everyone around. Judging from my experience, any form of "BOLT WARS" here will set canyoneering back a few years. So bolts are kind of a requirement to push this sport forward. I have made friends with very strong roots here, (where they want to become a part of their own sovereign nation)... At first he was against people "rappelling waterfalls". Especially if its just a bunch of mainlanders invading their sacred lands. However, I explained our process, and safety, along with bolts and accessing areas he hasn't seen that's right behind him. It doesn't have to be just mainlanders going in there. I've been trying to train him, and give HIM and his FAMILY access to their own backyards (canyons) and seeing what he's missing. Now he is very interested. Everything at first, made him feel unsafe. However the moment I mention bolts, redundancy, fall protection, etc.. etc.. he's considering it. I really would like to come out with us soon. This is DEFINITELY a proper step in pushing canyoneering forward in Maui. We need to get any local that's willing.. involved and wanting to do this sport.

I know one should up their skills for doing routes. But what's the point of having those skills, if you can't even use them. locals don't want cocky haole's saying "what's right, and what's wrong", when they don't even live here.

The rules of Canyoneering in Utah.. do not apply to the rules of canyoneering Maui. I'm actually writing a little handbook with tips and methods of canyoneering Maui. These are my opinions, but they work best through experience.

[Kuya]

Though natural anchors are easy here, and it can be built, we prefer safety of bolts and peace of mind with bolts.

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

[Brian in SLC]

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

Nope. Bolts rarely fail. My bet is there isn't a fatality at least in recent years due to a bolted rappel anchor failing.

In ANAM, year after year, there are accidents including fatalities where natural anchors fail. Now, this is climbing info, not canyoning, but, its rappelling or anchoring info and data, so...

I think there's been a fair number of at least injuries from "natural" or non-bolted anchors failing in the canyon community.

Of course, there's poorly placed bolted anchors, and, poorly done natural anchors, and everything in between.

A BFT (big f'n tree)? Yeah, usually bomber. Unless the sling around it isn't finished well...

[Mojave Silence]

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

Depends. A bolt "less safe" than natural anchors, generally....no. A correctly installed bolt will hold 5,000-7,000 lbs, your spine will take about 2,000-ish lbs before snapping.

[Kuya]

Depends. A bolt "less safe" than natural anchors, generally....no. A correctly installed bolt will hold 5,000-7,000 lbs, your spine will take about 2,000-ish lbs before snapping.

Not talking about my spine though , I'm talking about trees and large boulders and such. I'm still not convinced that a bolt is safer than anchoring off a sturdy tree. and it seems that there would be TONS of those to be found in Maui. but all is well. I'm not anti-bolt. I prefer to use natural anchors but it doesn't hurt my feelings to see a well placed sturdy bolt.

[Renatomic808]

Not talking about my spine though , I'm talking about trees and large boulders and such. I'm still not convinced that a bolt is safer than anchoring off a sturdy tree. and it seems that there would be TONS of those to be found in Maui. but all is well. I'm not anti-bolt. I prefer to use natural anchors but it doesn't hurt my feelings to see a well placed sturdy bolt.

There are a ton of trees and rocks that make bomber natural anchors here. I trust a well built properly made natural anchor, just as much as a properly placed bolt. The only anchor I've had fail on me, was a rock anchor.. that someone else made, and i didn't double check. Good thing my ass is real fat, and cushioned my landing.

I think Mojave Silence is saying that you'll get killed from the shock of falling, before the bolt comes close to failing.

Anyways, the whole idea is trying to keep the canyons out here as safe as possible, and clean as possible. Though bolts may seem not as "clean" for the canyon.. it does have a lot less impact with what gets washed downstream, and into our ocean.

[Kuya]

There are a ton of trees and rocks that make bomber natural anchors here. I trust a well built properly made natural anchor, just as much as a properly placed bolt. The only anchor I've had fail on me, was a rock anchor.. that someone else made, and i didn't double check. Good thing my ass is real fat, and cushioned my landing.

I think Mojave Silence is saying that you'll get killed from the shock of falling, before the bolt comes close to failing.

Anyways, the whole idea is trying to keep the canyons out here as safe as possible, and clean as possible. Though bolts may seem not as "clean" for the canyon.. it does have a lot less impact with what gets washed downstream, and into our ocean.

Gotcha! The real concern here is WHEN CAN I AFFORD TO GET BACK TO MAUI AND DO SOME CANYONEERING!!

[Renatomic808]

Gotcha! The real concern here is WHEN CAN I AFFORD TO GET BACK TO MAUI AND DO SOME CANYONEERING!!

When you make it here.. let me know! Let's head out and play... and random question.. you filipino? lol

[Slot Machine]

I know one should up their skills for doing routes. But what's the point of having those skills, if you can't even use them. locals don't want cocky haole's saying "what's right, and what's wrong", when they don't even live here.

The rules of Canyoneering in Utah.. do not apply to the rules of canyoneering Maui. I'm actually writing a little handbook with tips and methods of canyoneering Maui. These are my opinions, but they work best through experience.

Great posts, thanks for the education! Had no idea things were so different there (guess that is obvious). I'm looking forward to your handbook.

[Kuya]

When you make it here.. let me know! Let's head out and play... and random question.. you filipino? lol

I will for sure! Wish I would have been in contact with you guys last April when we were there. Ah well, next time!

I am not a Filipino, I just speak the Language :) I lived in the Philippines a couple of years and so I am partial to the people and the language :)

[ratagonia]

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

Very, VERY scary.

May I suggest it is inappropriate for YOU to take kids into the Wilderness when you lack the ability to descend canyons under anticipated conditions. It is not OUR job to make sure the canyon is bolted down to a level that your limited skills allow you to traverse it safely - it IS YOUR JOB to have the skills to descend canyons in the conditions likely to be found, which includes with the bolts removed. If you take kids into canyons without these skills, you are recklessly endangering those under your care.

What Council are you in? What are your Council's requirements for taking kids technical canyoneering?

May I suggest: Dark Horse Leadership

(801) 853-8593 (Website is not up at the moment).

And yes, I am harshing on you, Kuya.That is MY job. Baptist Draw is a beginner-friendly canyon without the bolts. One thing I learned in Scouts is to adapt to the natural environment, not to change the environment to accommodate my dainty derrierre.

Tom

[ratagonia]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Baptist would be rebolted before your crowbar got cold. It's a trade route. Why bother?

But the others... I think they would be more worthwhile game, and quite interesting to attempt "clean".

Also, I heard that there was a bolt above the crux in Zero G. Did anyone take this out? Can I add this to your list CD?

There is a lot of history to support Baptist as a beginner-friendly, natural anchor canyon. The bolts in there are a recent 'innovation'. Removal of bolts in canyoneering does not usually lead to re-placement.

Tom