Anchor and Rope responsibility

[Dakine]

I have a question for the group. What is our responsibility when it comes to anchor and placed ropes? A little background...On two of the more popular routes I do I find bad anchors and old fixed ropes. My partners and I have been questioning whether or not we should remove some of these ropes. These ropes are not safe and could lead to someone getting in over their head or worse. The anchors we are repairing or replacing. I am not an expert, but I know what is safe. Thanks for your comments.

[dweaver2130]

I am another new member but I have been taught that repairing, replacing, and ensuring that anchors are placed appropriately to prevent injury and resource damage is the right thing to do. I know fixed ropes are in some locations to assist with difficult down climbs and such, other locations I have not been too they might be placed for escape or who knows. I would say that the average unknowing family on a day hike might find a fixed line and possibly attempt to continue a hike that would be otherwise completely impossible without gear or experience and then find themselves in trouble. However I do not know where the ethics and/or politics sit on such fixed lines. Hopefully Tom will through his two cents in on this one.

[TheBird]

I've removed a few bad anchors and replaced them with safer ones. Usually just slings with bad lengths that would rub the rope or make the pull difficult. I think if you run across an unsafe anchor just go ahead and remove it. Especially if you're replacing it with a better one.

I'm a bit more weary about removing any fixed rope though, even if it looks a little sketchy and since I don't bring anything to remove bolts I don't mess with lose or badly placed ones. I just hope that future groups use their judgement too.

[Iceaxe]

I try to "leave no trace".

Now I know that is not really practical for most groups, but if you use it as a guide it makes all your other decisions easy.

Maybe the motto should be "try to leave no trace", which includes cleaning up after others.

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[Slot Machine]

I have a question for the group. What is our responsibility when it comes to anchor and placed ropes?

For non-trade routes (remote desert routes):

We always remove or repair unsafe anchors, and always try and remove unnecessary anchors. We use ghosting techniques when possible and leave the canyon as clean as possible. When we enter "non-trade route" canyons we expect to find no existing anchors and neither should anyone else. (i.e. you aren't screwing anyone over by ghosting these canyons)

For trade routes (Zion mostly):

People expect anchors in most trade route canyons; so the ethic is to repair anchors that need to be repaired (mostly webbing on bolts). Building new anchors is normally not needed and usually frowned upon. If you were to remove all the webbing (or get crazy and remove the bolts too) from these canyons, you would be setting up subsequent groups for disaster.

I'd bet most, if not all Hawaii canyons fall into the first category. So let the trash collectin' begin!

[ratagonia]

Generally, I gotta agree with the crowd - trash is trash, fixed ropes are trash, bad webbing is trash. Bad anchors should be removed whether you replace them with a good anchor or not.

But, in Hawaii, the canyoning community is small. I know Dave Black got pissed about someone removing a couple ropes he had in place. A courtesy email could go along way toward keeping things congenial.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

But, in Hawaii, the canyoning community is small. I know Dave Black got pissed about someone removing a couple ropes he had in place. A courtesy email could go along way toward keeping things congenial.

Tom

Huh, that seems strange given Mr Black's level of experience. Why did he leave those ropes in place? Why would he get pissed if they were removed?

Bob

[ratagonia]

Huh, that seems strange given Mr Black's level of experience. Why did he leave those ropes in place? Why would he get pissed if they were removed?

Bob

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

Tom

[Dakine]

Thanks for the replies. I know Dave Black a little and would consult him on certain canyons. It just scares me that some tourist might come across a rope and get stuck or worse. I guess I will fix bad anchors and use my best judgement on fixed ropes. Thanks again and if any one has more to say I am all ears.

[Dakine]

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

Tom

The reasons people might get pissed are some locals might have placed them to get out of canyons were they pig hunt or grow stuff. In Dave's case I know he has some lines to get out of canyons in emergencies and I have used them.

[Slot Machine]

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You don't say?

Today in Hawaii:


Today in Salt Lake City:

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

I didn't think my questions were controversial in the least. Let me rephrase: Why would any Hawaiian bruddah leave his rope in da canyon?

[dweaver2130]

Today in Phoenix....


Sorry for snickering at all you poor cold Utah folks....

[Mojave Silence]

In Maui those lines are usually used by the locals to access the canyon for jumps etc. I wouldn't remove them if you wish to remain in good standing with the locals.

[Renatomic808]

Personally, I've been rebolting some of the routes. Better placement, and reinforcing the anchors that are currently here. Some of the anchors are about 10 years old or more. I'd replace any anchor that looks sketchy, to keep myself alive, and not just "other's" who may be coming through the canyon later. Sucks that it does cost a little more, but its worth it to stay alive. Bolts are a lot easier to be inconspicuous here because, of all the plants, algae, and moss that grows. Due to the constant flash flooding of our streams, webbing tears and gets washed away so much that they end up in the ocean; choking some poor, defenseless turtle. A properly placed anchor out of the "flash course" fixes that problem.

As for fixed ropes here, we leave them as escape/egress lines. Other fixed lines are definitely set by locals who cliff jump. You DON'T want to remove those. In fact, I'd put better ropes, and retie the anchor. Make it bomber for them. In case you get caught doing that by the locals, you might gain a good friend in the area. Fixed line removal, my guess is from people who live in the area (private property owners), to deter trespassers from coming along. Another guess, is that the Department of Land and Natural Resources may have come across them. They DEFINITELY remove ropes for less environmental stompings.

[SRG]

In bolt-free areas of Utah(North Wash, The Roost, The Swell, Cedar Mesa, Escalante), what is the proper etiquette/ethic for removing bolts or other fixed hardware... anyone know? Are ALL canyons in these areas supposed to be bolt-free? When posting this, the two examples I have in mind are the 3 bolt anchor for the rappel from Baptist Draw into Upper Chute and the fixed pin at the pothole in Alcatraz. Thoughts?

[Kuya]

In bolt-free areas of Utah(North Wash, The Roost, The Swell, Cedar Mesa, Escalante), what is the proper etiquette/ethic for removing bolts or other fixed hardware... anyone know? Are ALL canyons in these areas supposed to be bolt-free? When posting this, the two examples I have in mind are the 3 bolt anchor for the rappel from Baptist Draw into Upper Chute and the fixed pin at the pothole in Alcatraz. Thoughts?

My thoughts are, if seeing bolts make you angry, don't go into canyons with bolts

Will this debate ever end?

[canyondevil]

I think of the ettiquite as being, somebody felt they had the right to place them, and you/I have the right to remove them. The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. Im not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

[SRG]

My thoughts are, if seeing bolts makes you angry, don't go into canyons with bolts

... go into them with crowbars... I kid, I kid .

Will this debate ever end?

But seriously though, wasn't trying to rekindle the bolt wars with my original repost. I think the best bet to end the debate is to respect local ethics. If no one placed bolts where they shouldn't and no one chopped bolts where they shouldn't, then there wouldn't be an issue.

[dweaver2130]

I thought Tom's post here was awesome on this....It was post five in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...limbing+ethics

Sorry not to sure how to link just the quote from page to page without just copy and pasting and then it loses context.

I have not done very many canyons but have never done any bolted ones, and would never see why, if the moves are easy or have acceptable risk and anchor material is abundant why bolt. Secondly I would personally never remove a bolt myself since I don't know the reason it was put there. I will leave that to people much much smarter than myself.

[mzamp]

Why are there so many bolts at the big drop in blue John? Did they need rig special anchors for Brokaw and his crew?