Anchor and Rope responsibility

[Brian in SLC]

Canyoneering = rappelling?

You could probably replace the crappy washer stack and rusted chain on those bolts with standard hangers. If someone does try to remove those anchors, remember those are stud bolts and they usually don't extract out of the rock too well. They'd need to be chopped off, driven into the hole, then patched appropriately to leave the least mess.

They look huge, like 1/2" stud/bolts? Might be tough to snap them off flush with the rock. Take a big hammer. My bet is they'd be tough to yank with any crowbar. A super long torque bar might over torque them and snap them off flush, though. A little tap here and there with a cold chisel might introduce enough of a weak spot to create a failure point flush with the rock. Might be hard to chop them and not scar up the rock.

[Kuya]

Canyoneering = rappelling?

For those wanting a definition of canyoneering, some good ones are found here, here, and here.

Of course, all of us on this forum probably know what canyoneering is. And yes, for tech canyons it does involve rappelling. Which is what makes it high risk according to the BSA (That and the fact that it might possibly require swimming and wilderness travel beyond 30 min of travel time to a medical facility). Which is why it requires training and people to know what they are doing.

What would be really helpful actually is if someone could explain clearly how a Local BSA Scout Leader in the UNPC could legitimately take his boys on a canyoneering trip with out the use of a guide service. The best I can come up with is that a leader needs to have CPR certification be well versed in BSA Climb On Safely, and Safety Swim Defence, and the leader needs to be a certified by a nationally recognized climbing program to qualify as a BSA Climbing Instructor. With that, it seems that a Scout Leader could successfully submit a Tour Plan and get it approved for a canyoneering trip.

Thoughts?

[Brian in SLC]

The best I can come up with is that a leader needs to have CPR certification be well versed in BSA Climb On Safely, and Safety Afloat, and the leader needs to be a certified by a nationally recognized climbing program to qualify as a BSA Climbing Instructor. With that, it seems that a Scout Leader could successfully submit a Tour Plan and get it approved for a canyoneering trip.

Thoughts?

Well...I wasn't confused (ha ha). Seems like to me, everywhere the BSA reg's where there is climbing mentioned there's also rappelling mentioned, so, even though "canyoneering" isn't called out per se, the same requirements apply, and, I think you got it with regard to the minimum requirements.

[airman]

Good on ya for digging in and trying to get to the bottom of this, Kuya!

What would be really helpful actually is if someone could explain clearly how a Local BSA Scout Leader in the UNPC could legitimately take his boys on a canyoneering trip with out the use of a guide service.

Yes it would. I wish I could help you, but I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I think the Great Salt Lake Council has addressed these issues, but I'm not sure about the UNPC. The GSLC canyoneering policy can be found here: http://www.doubleknot.com/openroster....aspx?id=92129.

May I suggest that you contact the UNPC council with your questions regarding BSA policy. If your unit is sponsored by the LDS Church, I would also verify that whatever you find out from the UNPC is also compliant with church safety policies and guidelines. You asked a good question in an earlier post about the First Presidency letter regarding safety. The very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 of the Handbook of Instructions (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/share...g.pdf?lang=eng) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." I think that is going to be your best resource in finding an answer to your questions.

well versed in ... and Safety Afloat ...

As a side note, I think Safe Swim Defense would be much more relevant than Safety Afloat. I suspect that Safe Swim Defense is what you meant.

I hope you find an answer to your questions and are able to take youth canyoneering within the rules set forth by the BSA and the LDS Church (if applicable). As you consider these issues, ask yourself these kinds questions:

1. If an accident occurred, would I likely be covered by BSA insurance and/or Church insurance?
2. Do I have the skills to rescue a Scout with a stuck rappel device?
3. Do I have the skills and equipment needed to treat a serious injury in the wilderness?
4. Do I have other competent, experienced, and trained leaders who can help me?
5. Do I know what to do if a Scout freaks out in the canyon and has to be hauled out or requires a tandem rappel?
6. Do I have access to BSA-compliant equipment, including harnesses, helmets, and rappel devices for all participants?
7. Can I build anchor systems in a canyon that are BSA compliant?
8. Can I meet the legal standard of care that is necessary when entrusted with someone else's son or daughter?

I could go on, but I hope that helps give you a taste of things that you should think about. From my perspective, relying merely on a BSA Climbing Instructor certification seems inadequate for taking youth canyoneering. I believe canyoneering requires a higher skill set, including rescue skills. Topping Out (and presumably most BSA Climbing instruction) doesn't cover pick offs, ascending, passing knots on ascent/descent, haul systems, and so on. It is my opinion that these skills are necessary when canyoneering with Scouts. That's just my 2 cents.

Moderators: May I kindly suggest that the latter portion of this thread be split into a separate thread on Scouting and Canyoneering.

[Kuya]

Good on ya for digging in and trying to get to the bottom of this, Kuya!



Yes it would. I wish I could help you, but I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I think the Great Salt Lake Council has addressed these issues, but I'm not sure about the UNPC. The GSLC canyoneering policy can be found here: http://www.doubleknot.com/openroster....aspx?id=92129.

May I suggest that you contact the UNPC council with your questions regarding BSA policy. If your unit is sponsored by the LDS Church, I would also verify that whatever you find out from the UNPC is also compliant with church safety policies and guidelines. You asked a good question in an earlier post about the First Presidency letter regarding safety. The very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 of the Handbook of Instructions (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/share...g.pdf?lang=eng) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." I think that is going to be your best resource in finding an answer to your questions.


As a side note, I think Safe Swim Defense would be much more relevant than Safety Afloat. I suspect that Safe Swim Defense is what you meant.

I hope you find an answer to your questions and are able to take youth canyoneering within the rules set forth by the BSA and the LDS Church (if applicable). As you consider these issues, ask yourself these kinds questions:

1. If an accident occurred, would I likely be covered by BSA insurance and/or Church insurance?
2. Do I have the skills to rescue a Scout with a stuck rappel device?
3. Do I have the skills and equipment needed to treat a serious injury in the wilderness?
4. Do I have other competent, experienced, and trained leaders who can help me?
5. Do I know what to do if a Scout freaks out in the canyon and has to be hauled out or requires a tandem rappel?
6. Do I have access to BSA-compliant equipment, including harnesses, helmets, and rappel devices for all participants?
7. Can I build anchor systems in a canyon that are BSA compliant?
8. Can I meet the legal standard of care that is necessary when entrusted with someone else's son or daughter?

I could go on, but I hope that helps give you a taste of things that you should think about. From my perspective, relying merely on a BSA Climbing Instructor certification seems inadequate for taking youth canyoneering. I believe canyoneering requires a higher skill set, including rescue skills. Topping Out (and presumably most BSA Climbing instruction) doesn't cover pick offs, ascending, passing knots on ascent/descent, haul systems, and so on. It is my opinion that these skills are necessary when canyoneering with Scouts. That's just my 2 cents.

Moderators: May I kindly suggest that the latter portion of this thread be split into a separate thread on Scouting and Canyoneering.

This is what I am talking about! Thanks for this post! Very Helpful!

Yeah, I have looked into the GSLC program (today I even talked to the guy who helped develop their program) , and I really wish the UNPC would adopt something similar.

I have sent some emails to the scouting execs in the UNPC. I am very interested in what they have to say about canyoneering in their council.

Your list above has hit on some key points! Thanks again for your input.

[Kuya]

Got a email from the UNPC Camping Chairman:

Get certified to take your group out climbing, rappelling or canyoneering

All Utah National Park Council climbing, rappelling, and canyoneering activities must take place under the supervision of certified Climbing Instructors from the council other than while working with licensed and insured professional guide services.

Currently the council is working on a new certification program. This program will include several days of instruction, practical application as well as a certification test. Instruction will be provided by professional services from within the community, however the Utah National Parks Council will administer the certification and testing process.

Due to the new policies and procedures within the council all past certified Climbing Instructors will need to become updated on the new pollicies and procedures then successfully pass the written and practical exam administered by the Council in order to be active climbing instructors.

Certification testing as well as training will begin spring 2013.

Finally a LITTLE bit of clarification from the UNPC! not perfect, but at least getting somewhere.

[Jaxx]

With regards to the bolt in Zero G, if it is the same bolt I know of it was placed by SAR during a rescue and was not placed to dumb the canyon down.

It is actually a cam if I remember right. A tiny cam. I used it and it was very helpful. Could we have gotten down without. Sure. Was it way easier with. Yep.
It is going to be very difficult to remove the whole thing. It was jammed in there.

On a side note this thread reminds me of why I rarely visit Bogley. I don't recognize very many of the names on here anymore. I guess I'm not alone.