Walker Gulch into Orderville

[Deathcricket]

LOL Kip has explored and shared a lot of zion canyons with people, maybe if you didn't act like such an ass?

He's probably gone back to the shadows, but if you see him, tell him to post some beta on a canyon or just ONE trip report and we'll talk. Too Wet maybe?

[Scott P]

He's probably gone back to the shadows, but if you see him, tell him to post some beta on a canyon or just ONE trip report and we'll talk

Actually, there are plenty of trip reports and beta associated with the person in question. They are on the canyons group. Plus the original beta for many of the Zion canyons posted on Bogley and elsewhere originally came from this person.

[Deathcricket]

Actually, there are plenty of trip reports and beta associated with the person in question. They are on the canyons group. Plus the original beta for many of the Zion canyons posted on Bogley and elsewhere originally came from this person.

Ahhh so he just comes here to pick fights, complain we are posting info about "his" canyons, suppress threads, and get beta deleted. Then on the "other" forum (that I don't visit) he's a swell guy and shares tones of info, got it. My bad apparently....

Just go to any one of his 35 posts and you'll see how my opinion might be different. I also know at least 2 people who have done canyons with him and been sworn to secrecy. I was actually invited (and very nicely) but not a fan of secret canyons and secret handshakes is all. Not saying he's not a very nice guy. I'm sure once you're "in the club" he's awesome.

[ratagonia]

Ahhh so he just comes here to pick fights, complain we are posting info about "his" canyons, suppress threads, and get beta deleted. Then on the "other" forum (that I don't visit) he's a swell guy and shares tones of info, got it. My bad apparently....

Just go to any one of his 35 posts and you'll see how my opinion might be different. I also know at least 2 people who have done canyons with him and been sworn to secrecy. I was actually invited (and very nicely) but not a fan of secret canyons and secret handshakes is all. Not saying he's not a very nice guy. I'm sure once you're "in the club" he's awesome.

I am so glad I do not live in your world.

Tom

[BW123]

Ahhh so he just comes here to pick fights, complain we are posting info about "his" canyons, suppress threads, and get beta deleted. Then on the "other" forum (that I don't visit) he's a swell guy and shares tones of info, got it. My bad apparently....

Just go to any one of his 35 posts and you'll see how my opinion might be different. I also know at least 2 people who have done canyons with him and been sworn to secrecy. I was actually invited (and very nicely) but not a fan of secret canyons and secret handshakes is all. Not saying he's not a very nice guy. I'm sure once you're "in the club" he's awesome.

I could also refer back to any of your posts and make the opposite conclusion that you are much more intelligent and thoughtful than the internet portrays you to be; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. In defence of myself, I don't have a real position on sharing beta anywhere or with anyone - so long as it's accurate. It is also silly to think I could control what any of my partners share. Perhaps you think that because I don't offer free beta on this forum, I don't liberally share?

Someone asks what the first mandatory rappel in Walker looks like and I say:



Big Deal! Canyons are free and available on any topo map. If there's one in Zion that looks intriguing just ask someone, even me, and maybe they will share.

Kip

[Deathcricket]

I could also refer back to any of your posts and make the opposite conclusion that you are much more intelligent and thoughtful than the internet portrays you to be; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Kip

No no, I'm even MORE idiotic than my posts make me out to be. You are going the wrong way with this.

So let's just clear the record then. You have not taken at least two people through a canyon called "Too Wet" or "Two Wet" and made them swear to secrecy? You did not indirectly invite me to go through said canyon on the condition that I would never reveal it's location? I would hate to bring the two people into this because they invited me confidentially as well. But I can easily go back to them and verify on end. I've never met you.... Unless we did Englestead at a bogleyfest like 5 years ago... I recall a dude named Kip who has some friends who lived right next to the 1st rap and they shuttled the ropes back for us, really nice, and I think a guy named Kip defended me when Tom started bitching me out because I used a quick draw to hang my backpack off of while rapping.... Oh man that was so long ago I forget, could be wrong... Maybe I have done a canyon with you, hmmm...

Anyways clear the record, say you don't run a secret handshake club, I'll go double check with my friends, and then you get an official apology from me.

[BW123]

No no, I'm even MORE idiotic than my posts make me out to be. You are going the wrong way with this.

So let's just clear the record then. You have not taken at least two people through a canyon called "Too Wet" or "Two Wet" and made them swear to secrecy? You did not indirectly invite me to go through said canyon on the condition that I would never reveal it's location? I would hate to bring the two people into this because they invited me confidentially as well. But I can easily go back to them and verify on end. I've never met you.... Unless we did Englestead at a bogleyfest like 5 years ago... I recall a dude named Kip who has some friends who lived right next to the 1st rap and they shuttled the ropes back for us, really nice, and I think a guy named Kip defended me when Tom started bitching me out because I used a quick draw to hang my backpack off of while rapping.... Oh man that was so long ago I forget, could be wrong... Maybe I have done a canyon with you, hmmm...

Anyways clear the record, say you don't run a secret handshake club, I'll go double check with my friends, and then you get an official apology from me.

I'm not going to wallow in your mud; however, I will put your 'Too Wet' accusations into context. 'Too Wet'/'Bear Claw'/'The Main Fork of Beartrap Canyon' are all the same canyon. The route begins on private land near Kolob Peak and ends on BLM land near the Hop Valley TH. You enter and exit Private/Blm/Park land several times. The first sequence of waterfall rappels is on private land. There are several levels of permission required for access, which is not assured. I have gained permission on a few occasions (local contacts) but frankly it's not worth the trouble. In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured; American Canyoneers is working towards this end. That being said, would it be responsible of me to broadband this canyon?

K

[Brian in SLC]

Someone asks what the first mandatory rappel in Walker looks like and I say...

Dude, that's totally down climbable...

Ha ha!

Walker o' the Bush! I forgot my secret handshake...did it go along with the phrase, "honey, I know its late, but, I'll be home in time..."?



Cheers!

[2065toyota]

Ram. Thank you for pictures and stories of your past adventures. I would ask that this doesn't prevent you from doing so in the future. Thanks. Kody

[yetigonecrazy]

this may be a stupid question, forgive my ignorance.......but who or what agency appointed the people who guard canyon information? it seems like the titles (and authority that goes with it) were kind of just........assumed? or were their some elections I missed? if thats the case, maybe we should hold a new election? do i have to be registered in a certain district to vote on that? is there a congressman or agency rep I can write a letter to expressing my frustrations with the current system?

[Sombeech]

You, Somebeech, and Deathcricket (genius) are the only ones that seem to be getting your panties in a bunch.

Whoa! I wasn't aware my panties are in a bunch about ANYTHING related to canyoneering. But then again, maybe you're new here.

I state the likely situation that somebody will post this route at sometime in the future, and there will be a debate whether or not to take it down, flame wars ensue, not to mention the wave of private messages to the poster from those who hardly even visit here on bogley except to stir up controversy like yourself, using multiple accounts.

Me, panties in a bunch over a canyoneering route? I couldn't care less. I'm just explaining my curiosity why you wouldn't talk about this route in the open, instructing those who may travel it regarding the delicacy of the environment, and possibly save the route from long term damage in the near future. I will never ever ever travel this route, nor anything close to it. So I do not care one bit about having the beta.

I invite all to a rational discussion, but then certain people begin with the childish accusations. It's unfortunate that healthy open minded conversations are prevented so quickly.

[ratagonia]

I'm not going to wallow in your mud; however, I will put your 'Too Wet' accusations into context. 'Too Wet'/'Bear Claw'/'The Main Fork of Beartrap Canyon' are all the same canyon. The route begins on private land near Kolob Peak and ends on BLM land near the Hop Valley TH. You enter and exit Private/Blm/Park land several times. The first sequence of waterfall rappels is on private land. There are several levels of permission required for access, which is not assured. I have gained permission on a few occasions (local contacts) but frankly it's not worth the trouble. In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured; American Canyoneers is working towards this end. That being said, would it be responsible of me to broadband this canyon?

K

He just gave you all the information you need to know. Way to go, KIP, SPOILING it for them. Perhaps I should add that the name might hint that you might want a wet suit. Careful of thundershowers.

What more would you want to know? How about, don't go trespassing in there, because it could spoil it for everyone.

Thanks.

Carry on.

Tom

[BW123]

I invite all to a rational discussion, but then certain people begin with the childish accusations. It's unfortunate that healthy open minded conversations are prevented so quickly.

It's also unfortunate that embellishments are made over private messages. Ram's entire point was that you were stirring up controversy by even mentioning private message 'intimidation'. He made an honest effort to find anyone who might have sent these messages and resolve the 'non-issue'....sorta like an adult.
K

[Sombeech]

Ram's entire point was that you were stirring up controversy by even mentioning private message 'intimidation'.
K

Me?

[ratagonia]

Me?

Jman actually. But after a few beers, all the players start looking alike...

[Sombeech]

Jman actually. But after a few beers, all the players start looking alike...

That's it, I'm changing my avatar!

[Deathcricket]

You should know as much as anyone, as my beta goes, all you have to do is ask. Kip

In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured

Hey no hard feelings. Doesn't hurt to at least ask I guess. For the record, I suspect this is a rare case where you will not share beta. I'm going to apologize anyways. This was the only place (Too wet) where I had even heard your name and suspect I unfairly lumped you in with the "A-team" douchebags who we are really complaining about in this thread. Further research and a couple PM's have told me that you're a very respected member of this community, have some amazing 1st descents (one person said possibly 50!), and other really cool stuff on your resume. Further, no one is boycotting your products as a protest to your douchyness and not one person had a bad thing to say about you. I suspect the "A-team" is just trying to ride your coat tails to enlarge their E-peen status, but really it seems your are in a league above them. And super nice to boot.

Anyways, my sincere apologies.

He just gave you all the information you need to know. Way to go, KIP, SPOILING it for them. Perhaps I should add that the name might hint that you might want a wet suit. Careful of thundershowers.

What more would you want to know? How about, don't go trespassing in there, because it could spoil it for everyone.

Thanks.

Carry on.

Tom

I'm impressed. I think that's the best beta you have ever passed out that someone didn't have to pay (overpay) for. Could it be you are turning over a "new leaf" for the "new year" and going to try and become a respected member of this community? Maybe there is hope for you yet! Good on ya buddy.

[jman]

Here's the deal, I never received RAM's email.

I got 2 PMs from ex-Bogley members and 3 PMs from current Bogley members.

Out of the 5, I only know 2 of them. Everyone said they would show like to take me through but that I couldn't tell anyone or name names. Thought that was strange, since you can easily find walker gulch due to google earth.

I respect the fact the people that offered to take me through - but the logistics of getting time off and to coordinate with their schedule etc, hardly works out I have found out.

To paraphrase what Toyota said, why not tell someone it is next to such and such, has this many rappels, takes this many hours, etc. I believe that's a proper way to share canyon info.

Oh, I 100% agree what Kip is saying when it comes to acces and not sharing info. No problem there.


But man, quite the drama scene this thread and the Sad Cow Disease thread have invoked. Very interesting. Good to see that Carpey still checks in from time to time, though ;)

Btw just in case this wasnt clear enough - I'm not in the business of naming names. Sorry, not gonna happen. No hard feelings Ram, nothing personal whatsoever. Serious. Sorry, that your email didn't come through either.

Btw, Kip - you put the word "intimidation" in my mouth. Not good. YOU inferred that.

I said that people wanted a contract for the canyon and I respectfully declined. Tom, Kip, Ram, and others all jumped each other and offered their opinion. I didn't stir anything (ad hominem perhaps?) and stated what happened when dweaver asked if I heard anything.

[Sombeech]

I got 2 PMs from ex-Bogley members

If they can Private Message, technically they are still bogley members and still surf bogley often enough to see the current threads, right?

Login and mingle once in a while, share your canyon care techniques, give some preventative maintenance tips to the masses

[jman]

If they can Private Message, technically they are still bogley members and still surf bogley often enough to see the current threads, right?

Technically, yes.

These two folks are long gone. One was even a rare poster in the canyoneering section but posted quite a bit in the hiking forum. I highly doubt he was part of the Zion team.