Assault Weapons?

[Sandstone Addiction]

Just finished watching the NRA Press Conference.

Nice to see someone stepping up with some ideas that have merit.

I loved how my President, Wayne LaPierre, blasted the media that were sitting in front of him. But of course, that will never make the news, just the freaks that tried to interrupt him.

[Iceaxe]

Two views of how to protect children from maniacs. Which of the two would you prefer for your children?

Attachment 62160

Hahaha.... I posted the above while waiting for the NRA press conference to start.... nice to see great minds think alike ;-)


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[mattandersao]

The ironic thing is that if I ever was forced to flee my house I would take a handgun and one of my scoped rifles before my "assault" rifle. Maybe that's just me, but long range rifle would be more useful for protecting and hunting

In "A Zombie Survival Guide" an AR is one of the lowest ranked weapons!

[oldno7]

He offered a plan that is to be implemented with NRA dollars.

That's substantially more than any politician can offer.

Ohh---except the ban barrel shrouds group, they have a plan

[mattandersao]

I am a little torn on this issue so can someone shed some light on the success of the Australian ban? Seems like it has worked but honestly IDK

As the US once again struggles with the issue of gun control, the success of John Howard's 1996 laws banning semi-automatic weapons in Australia has been raised in the American debate.
The New York Times has referred to Australia's gun laws as a "road map" for the US, saying that "in the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-1...xample/4431262

[mattandersao]

As for NRA response I didnt watch it but did he say who would pay for an officer in every classroom? That would add millions and millions of dollars in salary+ benefits (I think this is the best idea but I dont want to hear ya'll whining about paying for it with taxes!) at a time most states are cutting back.

[oldno7]

I am a little torn on this issue so can someone shed some light on the success of the Australian ban? Seems like it has worked but honestly IDK





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-1...xample/4431262

I know your not torn but I'll go there anyway.

First and foremost--you have to tell me HOW your going to confiscate 300million guns from citizens who have committed no crime.

Or--you could focus on how to make YOUR school a safer place. Put your energy where you see fit.....

Theres something you can do about one of these today....

[oldno7]

As for NRA response I didnt watch it but did he say who would pay for an officer in every classroom? That would add millions and millions of dollars in salary+ benefits (I think this is the best idea but I dont want to hear ya'll whining about paying for it with taxes!) at a time most states are cutting back.

After implementation, the NRA will PAY to train those with military and police backgrounds.

These are volunteer positions...

The NRA currently has training available for police officers and are highly qualified for this task.

Finding law abiding volunteers will not be a problem.

[oldno7]

Never a mention of an officer in every classroom.

[oldno7]

The NRA also offered, above and beyond training officers, to help any school who wants it, to implement further security as needed.


-nothing more critical than our children's well being
-parents need to have confidence in their safety
-most up to date template for every school to tweak and tailor
-armed security will be A component - but not the only
-decisions on armed security made at the local level
-does not require any large outlays of money from state/local/federal


-not taking questions but starting Monday they'll be willing to have one on one conversations

[Sombeech]

As for NRA response I didnt watch it but did he say who would pay for an officer in every classroom?

This is a great example of where you might have wanted to watch it before you made such an assumption of the cost

Just one in every building. A lot of the secondary schools already have a police officer on duty here in Weber School District, so that is a good chunk taken care of. And then the Elementary schools have part time officers that service multiple schools.

He had an outstanding point in that we have armed guards for our:

• Banks
• Power Plants
• Federal Office Buildings
• State Buildings
• Sports Stadiums
• Concert Events

But everyday, so many of our children go to these "proud gun free zones" which I think is absolute bullshit.

[oldno7]

Personally I would have made another proposal it would have went like this......

Since this country is DEEPLY divided at the 50/50 mark, we will be offering free help in regards to training and implementing further security measures to exactly 50% of US schools. We will hope that all schools remain safe while closely monitoring to see if there is any benefit that the 50% of schools enjoys. Further, after doing this study for 5 years, we suggest implementing whichever plan has worked the best at keeping students safe.

And in the interest of not forcing children from unwilling homes to participate, there will be a school in each community set up, we'll call these--liberal schools(gun free zones) and conservative schools(security personnel and school security systems upgraded).

What school you want to teach in Matt?

[oldno7]

I'm sure many will feel much more secure with the shoulder thing that goes up, ban crowd.

What a positive difference they've already made

[Sandstone Addiction]

I saw this posted on USSC.

Very generous indeed.


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Let our educators defend themselves and their students- Free classes to be offered
In the wake of the nation’s 16^th school weapon incident since August. Clark Aposhian through FairWarning Firearm Training is re-affirming the offer of no-charge Utah concealed carry instruction to all public school employees. This now will also be available for staff and faculty of Utah Higher Education entities.

Those interested may contact FairWarning at 801-560-4836 or by e-mail at Clark@fairwarning.biz

For those public schools employees who wish to be able to lawfully carry and defend themselves while at work A Utah concealed carry permit is required.

Utah is one of only 2 states, which allow for those with a clean background to apply for and obtain a permit to discretely carry a firearm for self-defense within a public school.

FairWarning promotes the option of carrying discrete but accessible firearms for self-defense. We do not ever recommend engaging into a hostile environment or situation. However, the ability to carry a firearm may in fact mitigate such situations and will at the very least afford individual protection for the carriers themselves. If those carriers have control or responsibility over a classroom full of children that same protection will tend to encompass them as well.

We strongly insist that the weapon be under the carriers control at all times, that it be maintained quietly and discreetly. We encourage an effective and consistent terrorist management plan be practiced within your schools.

We have taught many public schools employees in the past 11 years. We recommend that if an employee is in their classroom or other securable location and becomes aware of a violent situation that they immediately close and lock their classroom door after gathering all adjacent students into the classroom. This will be their shelter in-place. If that employee has access to a firearm they should only engage the intruder if their classroom shelter is breeched.

For those that think their children are safe in school and are far removed from the situations encouraging or allowing such attacks. With the current policies and procedures in place there is nothing to stop that same type of attacks from occurring here in Utah

“We will never know if the presence of a firearm in an employee’s hands would have saved the life of students or staff at these schools. However we may state, with absolute certainly, how many people lost their lives when staff were not carrying a firearm for self-defense.” W. Clark Aposhian“The only reason to allow teachers to be armed is if we are committed to protecting our children.”
W. Clark Aposhian

Sincerely,
W. Clark Aposhian
Chairman - Utah CCW Review Board
Chairman - Utah Shooting Sports Council
Chairman - Utah Self-Defense Instructors’ Network
Member – Salt Lake County Gun Injury Prevention Board
Owner - FairWarning Firearm Training Institute

FOR QUESTIONS OR TO ARRANGE INTERVIEWS:
Contact Clark Aposhian, FairWarning at 801-560-4836 or by e-mail at Clark@fairwarning.biz

http://utahshootingsports.com/



Not sure about other districts, but I was told that in the Alpine School District, you have the right to carry concealed, but if you choose exercise your right, you will be fired immediately...

[mattandersao]

Sorry, I didnt mean classroom I meant a police officer in every school but the question remains how will this be paid for salary+benefits adds up. I would guess that many states do not currently have a resource officer in their school.

In Utah this program thankfully already exists in many schools, and districts. I think you would have to do full time at elementary schools from now on after the latest shooting.

These are volunteer positions...

So they are Law Enforcement Volunteers, or just trained volunteers as there is a difference! If it is just some random volunteer I see that being a problem.

And in the interest of not forcing children from unwilling homes to participate, there will be a school in each community set up, we'll call these--liberal schools(gun free zones) and conservative schools(security personnel and school security systems upgraded).

I dont think this would be feasible. Building the new schools in the liberal zone, hiring new principals and teachers and paying their salary/benefits for the liberal zone, heating and cooling the new schools, etc. I see this adding lots of new demand on a stressed out system.

He had an outstanding point in that we have armed guards for our:

• Banks
• Power Plants
• Federal Office Buildings
• State Buildings
• Sports Stadiums
• Concert Events

Once again who is going to pay for this? Are these state employees? Are you going to give them retirement? etc?

know your not torn but I'll go there anyway.

You dont know me and I dont appreciate the characterization. Other than environmental topics I am quite libertarian. A little background on myself. My grandpa was a huge hunter, veteran, etc. He took me coyote shooting, bunny shooting, etc...been around guns most of my life, I dont own a gun because I realize my own inadequacies (I lose things, am a klutz and would end up in an accidental shooting sometime if I owned a gun). Some day I would like to own a rifle (mostly for the Zombiepocolype). Where I am torn is on owning basically anything more than say a rifle, shotgun etc....Some comments in this thread have been pretty thought provoking (modern rifles were cutting edge technology/military weapons at one time or another for example)

As for Australia the reason it wouldnt work in the USA is because it involved a confiscation (actually a buy back I believe and I understand a forced buy back is probably considered a confiscation) of firearms? Am I correct?

"in the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect."

I know there are three types of lies (lies, damned lies, statistics) but it seems as if this has worked for Australia, at least in preventing mass shootings. Am I wrong?

EDIT-
I meant to add I see a trained Law Enforcement Officer in every school to be the best solution. I think that having several teachers with concealed firearms could be even better if they were extremely well trained, and I dont just mean at the firing range trained, I mean they are trained to deal with a school shooter, with guns going off around them, smoke in the air, frantic kids running style.... but unless we could ensure they had as much mandatory training as a cop I dont think they should be carrying.

[oldno7]

Hang on....

Working on your Australia Problem

[oldno7]

Heres a Chart from the Australian Gov.
While it shows no statistic on mass murder, it does include records from the time they instituted a gun ban(that actually wasn't a ban)

In the time since the ban--Homocide has indeed decreased by 27%(+/-)

Assault has risen 67%

Sexual Assault has risen 82%

Robbery has gone down--11% (apparently nobody falls for the ol' finger in the pocket anymore)

Kidnapping and abductions have gone up--79%

lots of conclusions can be drawn, I have mine, I'll let you decide on yours.

Above the Australian chart, is one from Switzerland, where most males possess firearms, due in fact to a military requirement.

They keep these firearms and more, their entire life. Military automatic rifles owned by those serving, are made SEMI-AUTOMATIC after retirement and returned.

So you could conclude, Switzerland is heavily armed.

Year	Total Convictions	Homicide (Art. 111,112,113,116 StGB)	Serious Bodily Injury (Art. 122 StGB)	Minor Bodily Injury (Art. 123 StGB)	Sexual Contact with Children (Art. 187 StGB)	Rape (Art. 190 StGB)	Theft (Art. 139 StGB)	Robbery (Art. 140 StGB)	Receiving Stolen Goods (Art. 160 StGB)	Embezzlement (Art. 138 StGB)	Fraud (Art. 146 StGB)	Narcotics Possession	Major Violation of Traffic Laws (Art. 90 SVG)	Drunk Driving (Art. 91 Abs. 1 Satz 2 SVG)
2005	85,605	93	94	2,459	413	109	6,557	489	1,262	910	1,484	2,846	22,163	15,776
2006	90,592	95	105	2,523	382	131	6,569	553	1,196	880	1,521	2,616	21,599	18,439
2007	84,665	93	88	2,248	380	135	5,979	522	922	807	1,607	2,462	21,431	17,355
2008	93,024	95	133	2,635	415	133	6,345	522	905	848	1,665	2,606	25,339	17,836
2009	94,574	84	118	2,578	366	108	6,947	514	924	820	1,506	2,708	25,434	16,708

Us population--311,591,917ish
Australian Population--22,620,600
Swiss Population--7,907,000

So the Us population is around 14X larger than Australia
Australian Population App. 2.7X larger than Australia.

So, while it's easy and convenient to pick out one form of crime and try to make a point, it can be very misleading.
If you multiply any of the Swiss crime statistics by 2.7, none will come close to approaching the Australian numbers.

Therefore, if you want an answer to what really reduces crime, I suggest the model from Switzerland might be better than Australia's.

[Iceaxe]

I am a little torn on this issue so can someone shed some light on the success of the Australian ban? Seems like it has worked but honestly IDK

If you want to do a little reasearch I believe you will discover Australia's gun ban is seen as a monomental failure. If you are really interested in what happened in OZ you can start here

http://www.calnews.com/archives/metcalf13.htm

I'm not saying it's the best article out there, its just a place to start so you will have an understanding of what has happened. Much of the info in the article was provided by Inspector John McCoomb, Queensland's foremost police weapons expert.

[mattandersao]

An armed volunteer?

[mattandersao]

Thanks... comparison of Australia and Switzerland interesting...still on mass killings it looks like what Australia did has worked to stop them correct? Maybe they have just had 14 lucky years idk...