ATC vrs Other Decenders?

[rsmiller]

I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because theytend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mmlines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does nottwist a rope?
[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons if thatis any help

[ratagonia]

[QUOTE=rsmiller;518624]I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because theytend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mmlines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does nottwist a rope?
[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons if thatis any help

[rsmiller]

Tom that is helpful.... Do you find that the Pirana and simalure types of devices put significant number of twists in the rope? If so how do you manage this?

[hank moon]

i haven't seen a twist problem with any device on a "standard" rappel. When rapping with a rope bag (deploy-as-you-go), the munter hitch can create some probs. New or rope is inherently twisty for awhile...improperly coiled rope can be twisty...

p.s. there are several older threads that discuss various descenders in detail...

https://www.google.com/search?q=atc+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[tcott]

Setting the rope to just reach the bottom and going single strand eliminates any rope twist problems.

[LVRAY]

What Tcott said. Keep the rope just off the bottom so it will untwist on its own.

[davehuth]

It is common with longer raps for the bottom to be hidden from view. Personally I like hanging the bag on longer raps so constant friction can be applied and the rope follows a path avoiding tight squeezes and the wrong side of obstacles. I tried using a swivel to attach a hanging rope bag last weekend while using a Pirana, thinking that the twist would be transferred to the bag and taken care of by the swivel. I thought wrong, this needs to be rethought. I do find that over friction and speed add to the amount of twist (not scientific - do others observe this?); going slow and adjusting friction with methods external to the Pirana (like using a leg loop) have not eliminated the problem but have reduced to the twist to mostly being a non-issue.

[tcott]

It is common with longer raps for the bottom to be hidden from view. Personally I like hanging the bag on longer raps so constant friction can be applied and the rope follows a path avoiding tight squeezes and the wrong side of obstacles. I tried using a swivel to attach a hanging rope bag last weekend while using a Pirana, thinking that the twist would be transferred to the bag and taken care of by the swivel. I thought wrong, this needs to be rethought. I do find that over friction and speed add to the amount of twist (not scientific - do others observe this?); going slow and adjusting friction with methods external to the Pirana (like using a leg loop) have not eliminated the problem but have reduced to the twist to mostly being a non-issue.

I prefer to throw the bag in these situations and listen for the sweet sound of it smacking the ground before I step over the edge . Then set it to length after the first guy is down.

[zul]

Figure D is a better version of the figure 8 (re: rope curles).
I've been looking for a figure D with 'horns' for easy lock off options: Mini 8 by Rock Exotica.
ATS is another good option worth looking at.

Don't forget, the 'Z Rig' is a great way to add friction (on the fly, easy to learn) to the standard ATC.
I've tried the double biner method on the ATC but there was too much friction for my liking on the top 1/3rd of the rap (sticky at the top ... eekster !!).

You'll have to experiment w whatever you go with. This year, I worked the ATC in regular position (8mm line on longer raps of 150-180 footers) plus the 'Z Rig'. The additional friction is wonderful, super comfy. But again, you'll have to work into your own system w/ the ATC or switch to something else.

Yet another learning area for all devices is how to utilize the Auto Block (Prusik or VT Prusik). Super great safety backup. Kind of a 'must know' how to use/learn.

This winter, I'll be working on learning the Mini 8 from Rock Exotica:
http://www.rockexotica.com/products/...escenders.html

Too many choices, so little time.

[mzamp]

My friend/owner of AZ hiking shack turned me onto the Sterling ATS after he used it to rappel his "large frame" down heaps. I have used it on about half a dozen trips and so far I love it. I am still playing around with what settings work best for me, but ususally I just use it in normal mode. (trouble is I use a 8mm, 8.2, and a 9mm)

Here is Tom's review...
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearg...ring-reviewed/

My GF (she has only been doing this stuff for a year now) uses a ATC xp and has no problems even on 200ft free hanging drops on the 8mm canyon pro.

[dude9478]

Hey Tom,
Can you elaborate on this "the ATC works pretty well for all but Class C canyons"? Julie and I use the Pirana, but I am curious why the ATC doesn't work well with class C canyons.

Thanks,
Kevin

While I prefer a Pirana for "real canyons", the ATC works pretty well for all but Class C canyons.

Are you getting the most possible out of the ATC? The ATC-XP (and similarly the Guide) are made for skinnier ropes. Putting a second biner underneath adds considerably more friction.

Here's a pic to the various ATC-XP "settings" from an upcoming Tech Tip...

Tom

[hank moon]

Hey Tom,
Can you elaborate on this "the ATC works pretty well for all but Class C canyons"? Julie and I use the Pirana, but I am curious why the ATC doesn't work well with class C canyons.

Thanks,
Kevin

Briefly:

- Doesn't pass rope twists (which can get you stuck under water)
- Easier to lose
- Fumblier to rig/derig
- Limited friction options

[trackrunner]

I know of some people that believe two binners below the ATC with 8mm ropes single strand will reduce sheath slippage from ATC

[Brian in SLC]

Briefly:

- Doesn't pass rope twists (which can get you stuck under water)
- Easier to lose
- Fumblier to rig

I'd add that most folks who do a fair amount of class C type stuff use much thicker ropes, and, the ATC is just way too high a friction for fat, wet ropes in water flow. You want to be able to move, not get stuck and have to force rope through.

Swimming disconnects, especially in moving water, are much more sane with a device that's attached to a biner in the manner the Pirana or ATS is.

Another advantage is being able to adjust and reduce friction quickly and easily (horn wraps) also while in (or under!) flowing water. Also, being able to lock off the rope quickly too, or, get going again.

[Mountaineer]

I want to still try the Sterling ATS, but have used quite a bit the Totem, ATC-XP, Pirana, and Figure 8. Each have their pros and cons for sure, but I'm finding I use the ATC-XP the most. For floating disconnects, the Pirana is still my favorite. Jury is still out...

[2065toyota]

I've been packing a new ATS in my pack for the last couple of months but have never used it. Finally decided to use it today and my ATC will now become my backup. Very easy to configure and change the friction settings. We had all rope configurations from single 8 to double 9's an the learning curve on it was very short. I don't believe it to be any better than the piranha because their concepts are very similar

[Aj84737]

Huge fan of the ATS also. Pretty much all I use. Very easy to learn and rig on almost any rope configuration. Lots of friction settings and easy to add friction when needed. Perfect for swimming disconnects. All around great device.

[dweaver2130]

Wife and I are using the ATS as our primary descender. Works amazing, love the ease of different friction settings, and I can still use it even when belaying my climbing buddies. Played around with using it as a releasable anchor, and it works very well for that as well.

[Kuya]

Played around with using it as a releasable anchor, and it works very well for that as well.

Would you please elaborate about this ATS releasable anchor technique?

[Dakine]

I am also interested in this. Are you using it as a fiddle stick? Hope I got that right...