Aerial canyoneering

[hank moon]

Paraglider shot from Observation Pt. trail at around 3:30 this aft. Jumped from Angel's landing. Looked like fun! To view full size, open image in separate tab and zoom.

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[Brian in SLC]

Did you get to see the getaway car too? Ha ha...

Most of those guys are pretty talented. We were ledged on Space Shot for the night, just below Earth Orbit ledge, and, across the canyon, just left of Moonlight Buttress, "POW"...one two three guys jumped, deployed and all stepped on the same rock in the river, gathered their chutes, dove into a waiting car, and were gone. Crazy.

[peakbaggers]

When I first saw this - I thought, "Isn't that illegal in national parks & wilderness areas? Brian confirmed my suspicions. This is one area where I really disagree with the park service & Dept. of the Interior. Why should paragliders be banned from these areas? Usually the restrictions are mentioned in park literature along with the ban on mechanical means of getting around - no bikes, etc. I just don't see what's so obtrusive about paragliding though. It doesn't seem "mechanical" so why is it banned? Canyoneers probably carry more metal & equipment on them than a paraglider! Thoughts anyone? Tom?

[Brian in SLC]

Doesn't help your cause when you stage a protest to show how safe the sport is and a jumper dies...

Also doesn't help when you try to chase a jumper down and they drown in a river...

Or, when you jump, put your illegal jump in a video, and promote it...

That said, yeah, its pretty cool. Until it isn't. Super high mortality rate.

Sobering video. Saw it at Banff. A friend in the audience, when the film completed, looked at me with tears in her eyes and we both knew what she was thinking...(her boyfriend, high risk sports...only a matter of time...).

http://www.20secondsofjoy.com/

[ratagonia]

I think it unfortunate that paragliders and BASE are banned in all NPS Units - I think it could be managed selectively.

Both have a fairly high death rate (as in, WAY higher than rock climbing) and people dying in front of the tourists does not go over so well with Park management. They certainly have a reputation of having a high death rate.

The main argument against is that "air delivery" is a substantial disruption to the experience of normal visitors. Skydivers don't just plop down anywhere, they generally use specific sites that have a good, large, safetyized landing zones that are not used for other activities. Paragliders kinda the same, though the requirements are fewer, and good paraglider pilots go cross-country - but that is largely because paragliders can land in a farmer's field pretty easily. (When going cross-country, one of the key points for a pilot is to have a landing zone or two in sight at all times - or at least be well aware of when they don't!) But MOST paragliding is done at specific para-sites where conditions are good.

So it's not just a matter of it being prohibited. For it to be viable at NPS Units, it would take substantial accommodation by the NPS; something not entirely consistent with their policy of catering mostly to ma and pa tourist, and tolerating adventurous thrill-seekers like climbers and canyoneers.

Tom

[ratagonia]

http://www.20secondsofjoy.com/

Great Film, caught it on the tour.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah, what's the three stages of base jumping?

1) You hear about someone who's died.

2) You know someone who's died.

3) You die.

[ratagonia]

Yeah, what's the three stages of base jumping?

1) You hear about someone who's died.

2) You know someone who's died.

3) You die.

I remember from the film:

"Most Base jumpers don't Base for more than 5 years."

"Why's that?"

"Well, either you're dead, or all your friends are dead."

Tom

[Rob L]

Isn't Bogley about outdoor activities? Isn't paragliding or BASE jumping an outdoor activity?

There are deadly risks with all outdoor sports, so why single these out for censure? Or are non-earth-attached sports not welcome at Bogley?

Rob

[ratagonia]

Isn't Bogley about outdoor activities? Isn't paragliding or BASE jumping an outdoor activity?

There are deadly risks with all outdoor sports, so why single these out for censure? Or are non-earth-attached sports not welcome at Bogley?

Rob

Censure?

Who's censuring? We're repeating what BASE Jumpers say, no more no less. Dem the FACTS.

Celebrate diversity.

Viva la Freedom.

T

[Brian in SLC]

Isn't Bogley about outdoor activities? Isn't paragliding or BASE jumping an outdoor activity?

There are deadly risks with all outdoor sports, so why single these out for censure? Or are non-earth-attached sports not welcome at Bogley?

Absolutely no censureship here either. Got a ton of friends who base jump. Do I worry about them? Hewl ya. Are they not welcome? Hewl no.

[zul]

What are the stats or clarification on FREE CLIMBERS?? I'd like to hear what people have to say about free climbers historically and current free climbers. Every person has an idea about free climbers, including myself ... Are there stats or factual based knowledge ??

[hank moon]

What are the stats or clarification on FREE CLIMBERS?? I'd like to hear what people have to say about free climbers historically and current free climbers. Every person has an idea about free climbers, including myself ... Are there stats or factual based knowledge ??

Very little is known about free climbers as available information is sketchy and vague...

[peakbaggers]

I think it unfortunate that paragliders and BASE are banned in all NPS Units - I think it could be managed selectively.

Both have a fairly high death rate (as in, WAY higher than rock climbing) and people dying in front of the tourists does not go over so well with Park management. They certainly have a reputation of having a high death rate.

The main argument against is that "air delivery" is a substantial disruption to the experience of normal visitors. Skydivers don't just plop down anywhere, they generally use specific sites that have a good, large, safetyized landing zones that are not used for other activities. Paragliders kinda the same, though the requirements are fewer, and good paraglider pilots go cross-country - but that is largely because paragliders can land in a farmer's field pretty easily. (When going cross-country, one of the key points for a pilot is to have a landing zone or two in sight at all times - or at least be well aware of when they don't!) But MOST paragliding is done at specific para-sites where conditions are good.

So it's not just a matter of it being prohibited. For it to be viable at NPS Units, it would take substantial accommodation by the NPS; something not entirely consistent with their policy of catering mostly to ma and pa tourist, and tolerating adventurous thrill-seekers like climbers and canyoneers.

Tom

I had assumed that base jumping probably had a high injury/mortality rate but not paragliding. Perhaps I have too "romantic" a view of paragliding. It has the appearance of a sport that could be done much more safely. Base jumpers definitely are high thrill seekers and some of us may be inclined to say even have a "death wish." I never thought of paragliding as having that aspect. I can easily understand why national parks would want to exclude base jumpers. Maybe I can understand why they might want to exclude paragliding - but that sport seems to me to be consistent with the idea of a "wilderness experience." I don't know how many times my wife and I have stood atop a Colorado peak and gazed down over vast regions of tundra where it's tempting to dream about pulling out your chute and flying off the mountain top for a spectacular & gentle ride back down to treeline. (It would save a lot of wear & tear on our knees from long descents too!) the wilderness areas I'm thinking of are not densely occupied with tourist - in fact, you hardly see anyone, so I fail to see why paragliding would be so disruptive to the wilderness experience the kinds of places we venture into. Watching a paraglider seems kind of beautiful in a way. But again, maybe I've over-romanticized it and I need to revise my estimation of the sport.

[ratagonia]

I had assumed that base jumping probably had a high injury/mortality rate but not paragliding. Perhaps I have too "romantic" a view of paragliding. It has the appearance of a sport that could be done much more safely. Base jumpers definitely are high thrill seekers and some of us may be inclined to say even have a "death wish." I never thought of paragliding as having that aspect. I can easily understand why national parks would want to exclude base jumpers. Maybe I can understand why they might want to exclude paragliding - but that sport seems to me to be consistent with the idea of a "wilderness experience." I don't know how many times my wife and I have stood atop a Colorado peak and gazed down over vast regions of tundra where it's tempting to dream about pulling out your chute and flying off the mountain top for a spectacular & gentle ride back down to treeline. (It would save a lot of wear & tear on our knees from long descents too!) the wilderness areas I'm thinking of are not densely occupied with tourist - in fact, you hardly see anyone, so I fail to see why paragliding would be so disruptive to the wilderness experience the kinds of places we venture into. Watching a paraglider seems kind of beautiful in a way. But again, maybe I've over-romanticized it and I need to revise my estimation of the sport.

On the scale of things, Paragliding is more dangerous than climbing, way less dangerous than BASE.

You are welcome to petition the National Park Service.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

What are the stats or clarification on FREE CLIMBERS?? I'd like to hear what people have to say about free climbers historically and current free climbers. Every person has an idea about free climbers, including myself ... Are there stats or factual based knowledge ??

With regard to what? Injury/accident rates? ANAM has tracked accident data for many years, and, the there is a Canadian equivalent too.

What clarification would you like? You do know that "free" climbing is a style of climbing, using ropes and such, right? "Free soloing" is sans ropes.

Let's hear your ideas.

[zul]

Free Soloing ... sans ropes. Have some free solo climbers had a good (long/successful) career? or is it more like climb until you reach your end?

[ratagonia]

Free Soloing ... sans ropes. Have some free solo climbers had a good (long/successful) career? or is it more like climb until you reach your end?

Free soloing is a largely un-published, un-mediated aspect of climbing, so coming up with stats is very difficult. My take on it is that climbers have a general agreement that it would be a poor idea to encourage it for the 'general' climber, so it should not make it into the press, and climbers should not brag about it. So there is quite a bit of soloing going on out there, and quite a few solo'ers, though as a percentage of rock climbing activity and participants, it is pretty low. Heck, I was not much of a climber, and solo'd a few routes here and there.

We generally only hear about it when someone craters. So there is a bit of a list of soloers who fell off and died. The list of people who solo and live a long and beautiful life is stamped "Top Secret".

Then again, people die climbing all the time. Even "safe" sport climbing.

Tom

[TJ Sheridan]

Man this is seriously ballsy stuff. Gorgeous location to do it, but I wouldn't have the nerve to do it even if I had the health.

I met a group of free solo climbers down in Vegas a year or so back. The girl I was talking to was recovering from a serious fall the previous year, which messed her up pretty bad. While I was down visiting the area one of their free solo compatriots fell to his death. Young kid in his twenties. Sad waste of a life. When people say "yeah, but he died doing what he loved" I cringe. He never got married, never had kids, and never got to do thousands of other things he would have loved doing. I'm all for living a life of adventure, and even simple tasks like casual hiking can be deadly if you're not careful, but some choices are clearly crossing the line.

Thankfully we live in a time and place where most things, even stupid things, are still doable by those with the passion to pursue it.

FWIW, if you're loaded with money and want to invest, most National Parks have fines for breaking their rules. I've heard they run anywhere from $300 to $3000 per incident... if you get caught.
Not that I'm condoning that, but I've met a few people who think of it that way... and have had to pay the fines. I think the national parks are concerned about the cost of having to constantly be going in and rescuing people who have accidents, and the negative impact that would have on the environment. They ought to just charge a big fine up front for people who want to do it and allocate a few remote places for the activity. The parks are in such trouble financially, you'd think they'd be eager to make money any way they can.

[ratagonia]

They ought to ... allocate a few remote places for the activity.

It's called "BLM Land", and all these activities are legal there.

Tom