Canyoneering USA Tech Tips

[Slot Machine]

Not to derail this riveting tubular webbing discussion, but...

Tom, I thought of another thing I would like to see on your Tech Tips page. I know jack squat about ascending a rope, but I could probably do it if the need ever arose. However, I'd bet my way is not the best way.

Some canyoneering specific techniques (as compared to caving, if there is a difference) would be interesting and helpful. What are some common mistakes that people make when setting up ascenders? What are the best ascenders to lug around? What are your thoughts on Tiblocs? Maybe consider adding a short film of yourself jugging up a rope, to show the correct movements?

Bob

[ratagonia]

Not to derail this riveting tubular webbing discussion, but...

Tom, I thought of another thing I would like to see on your Tech Tips page. I know jack squat about ascending a rope, but I could probably do it if the need ever arose. However, I'd bet my way is not the best way.

Some canyoneering specific techniques (as compared to caving, if there is a difference) would be interesting and helpful. What are some common mistakes that people make when setting up ascenders? What are the best ascenders to lug around? What are your thoughts on Tiblocs? Maybe consider adding a short film of yourself jugging up a rope, to show the correct movements?

Bob

Thanks Bob.

That is a big one, as in, it is high on the list, but is hard to do a good job on. Might try to do it at Freeze Fest.

Tom

[trackrunner]

Some canyoneering specific techniques (as compared to caving, if there is a difference) would be interesting and helpful.

actually if you want to learn how to ascend better hang out with a caver. they can teach you better technique with just about any ascending system. a rope walker system may not be practical for canyoneering but I've seen a caver move faster with a texas system then I would with a frog set up. YMMV

most canyoneers I know use something similar to this YMMV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1MTxvR3TQ

[ratagonia]

actually if you want to learn how to ascend better hang out with a caver. they can teach you better technique with just about any ascending system. a rope walker system may not be practical for canyoneering but I've seen a caver move faster with a texas system then I would with a frog set up. YMMV

most canyoneers I know use something similar to this YMMV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1MTxvR3TQ

I have to absolutely, completely disagree with your Shaun.

If you want to learn how to climb a rope like a caver, as in big thick ropes, lots of gear, LONG ascents, mostly free-hanging, then by all means learn how to do so with cavers.

Thankfully, there are rarely opportunities to exercise these skills in canyoneering. But you may want to know how to ascend a rope, small diameter, generally short runs, usually in contact with the rock, and only every once in a while, and usually only one person doing it; with equipment that you are willing to carry every day, every canyon, though you are likely to use it only once a year (except in practice).

In which case you should learn such a thing from a person versed in canyoneering. And then practice it.

And yes, something like a "Texas Kick" works quite well for canyoneering.

Tom

[2065toyota]

We went and practiced with handheld ascenders, tiblocs & prussiks. They all worked and climbing the rope was easily done with all of them. Getting over the lips especially if it is freehanging with all your weight pulling the rope in contact with the rock is the hard part. Even after only 1 practice session it was a night and day difference in confidence boost. We stuck 2 ropes this year that we ascended and got back rather than cutting and leaving them and I believe the practice we did is why we were confident to do it.

[trackrunner]

I have to absolutely, completely disagree with your Shaun.

If you want to learn how to climb a rope like a caver, as in big thick ropes, lots of gear, LONG ascents, mostly free-hanging, then by all means learn how to do so with cavers.

Yeah I agree with your points, but re-read my post, where did I write anything about more gear, or any of that stuff. I tried to address that with a statement about systems that require more gear, "a rope walker system may not be practical for canyoneering".

I did write "they can teach you better technique with just about any ascending system." I improved at the texas kick learning technique (the movement, the right length of safety tether, right length of foot loop tether) from a caver using my standard rack of gear (ropeman & safety tether and foot loop). I've also learned ways to get over a overhang lip from a caver. I agree with you that it may be rare to ascend, but when you need to, its nice to know how to ascend and get over a lip. YMMV

In a race between you and an experienced caver using the same gear (tibloc or ropeman), with the only differation being technique and not gear, who do you think wins?

And yes, something like a "Texas Kick" works quite well for canyoneering.

I thought you absolutely, completely disagreed with me

[ratagonia]

In a race between you and an experienced caver using the same gear (tibloc or ropeman), with the only differentiation being technique and not gear, who do you think wins?

Using my system, I can climb efficiently at my aerobic limit.

My aerobic limit is not so hot, so I suspect any reasonable caver would outclimb me like I was standing still...

I thought you absolutely, completely disagreed with me

Yeah, that election thing. Gotta get out of the habit of hyper-hyperbole!

Tom

[trackrunner]

Using my system, I can climb efficiently at my aerobic limit.

My aerobic limit is not so hot, so I suspect any reasonable caver would outclimb me like I was standing still...

a second thing we agree with, that a carver's aerobic limit while ascending is probably higher than yours or mine.

[outsider]

Enjoying the tips (and have for years) - thanks Tom! A few ideas, that may not have been thrown out above, unless I skimmed past...
- I assume a page on the ATC, like the new Piranha tip is coming... hoping it includes more than XP-use-high-friction-side and 2 biner options for friction settings...
- Contingency anchor setup.
- Second the request posted above w/ regards to canyoneering-specific ascending.
- Fiddlestick.
- Two-person haul.
- Not sure if you are limiting things to gear-only tech tips, but what about going through some of the common partner-assist techniques?

-john

[Kuya]

Enjoying the tips (and have for years) - thanks Tom! A few ideas, that may not have been thrown out above, unless I skimmed past...
- I assume a page on the ATC, like the new Piranha tip is coming... hoping it includes more than XP-use-high-friction-side and 2 biner options for friction settings...
- Contingency anchor setup.
- Second the request posted above w/ regards to canyoneering-specific ascending.
- Fiddlestick.
- Two-person haul.
- Not sure if you are limiting things to gear-only tech tips, but what about going through some of the common partner-assist techniques?

-john

yes lets here so me more about the Fiddlestick and other Contingency Anchors. Maybe some instructions on how to use the ATS, tie off an ATC. Set up of guided rappel.

[ratagonia]

yes lets here so me more about the Fiddlestick and other Contingency Anchors. Maybe some instructions on how to use the ATS, tie off an ATC. Set up of guided rappel.

I might re-shoot the Pirana Tech Tip with the ATS, but...

Will consider all suggested topics - thanks.

Tom

[gingerproblems]

We often face arguments on threads over natural vs un-natural anchors. Maybe a page on natural anchor construction (bollards, dead men/gift wrapping, etc) could help promote the natural ethic.

[Brian in SLC]

As well, how a well placed bolted anchor could help avoid leaving long lengths of webbing, reduce visual impacts, reduce scarring on the rock from rope pulls, reduce damage to live trees and shrubs, and help keep down the erosion of walk around social trails.

[SRG]

Thanks for all the awesome tech tips Tom.

Maybe a page on natural anchor construction (bollards, dead men/gift wrapping, etc) could help promote the natural ethic.

I agree. I think a page on unnatural anchor deconstruction(bolt removal) would go a long way also

[Brian in SLC]

Well, if you have to remove a bolt, here's some good resources...

http://www.rockandice.com/articles/h...removing-bolts

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/howtorebolt.htm

http://www.bolt-products.com/SustainableBolting.htm