Clarification/Confusion/ Conservation

[penmartens]

I hesitate to start this thread. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation, but it seems to me worth pointing out. It would probably be best sounded out around a campfire with a group of people so that body language can be read and voice inflection heard. I don't do large groups and rarely do fires, so I will risk the topic here.

Comment from a beginning canyoneer, SRG, on his recent Roost exploratories:
...When we told them why we were there, their response was "Oh, that's probably the canyon we did yesterday". After comparing topos we were heartbroken to find out that the "undescended" slot that we were here for was in fact the same on[e] they had done the day prior... what're the odds? Feeling dejected we continued on to the head of the slot and damnnnn was it impressive. We set up camp on the rim and explored the next day...

Comment from an experienced canyoneer and preservist (someone believing that canyons should be left unpublished so others may explore), Outsider:
...I've had that rug pulled out from under me, although nothing even close to the "hour before" experience in this story. Disappointing coincidence, no doubt...

Comment from an experienced canyoneer and perceived secret keeper, Tom J, on his recent exploratory in Zion:
[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#000000]...We wandered, then stumbled toward that big last rappel

[Iceaxe]

Leaving a pristine experience for the next group is a worthy goal we should all strive for.

As for first descents.... over the years I have had what I thought were many.... only to find out later someone else had been there before. Now I try not to base my day on being first but concentrate more on the fun. Using that method I'm seldom disappointed.

But if you want a major disappointment story.... I once spent a couple weeks planning an unknown descent. I asked several friends to join and told them my plan. The day before our trip one of the guys I asked to join my trip but declined calls to tell me he did the canyon the day before. Now that really pissed me off and I never shared info with that individual again.

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[Rob L]

<snip>
I think it is part of human nature to want to be first. Few people want to pretend to be first. We don't enjoy feeling like we are first only to find we are second, or fortieth, or 200th. I don't think humans mind being 200th if they know beforehand they are not first.[....]A pristine feeling is welcomed by everyone. </snip.

Penny, there is much to life to which this refers...
the first canyon
the first airstrip
the first dolphin swim
the first whale-watch
the first off-piste ski
and so on.
How can you be *sure* that you are the first, and does it really matter, really?

I suppose it's up to the individual to determine what is important to them, and whether the fact that someone who might have gone before, is detrimental to their experience.

[Iceaxe]

For the record.... I now confine my "first" claims to "first documented desent". If you are into keeping score and being competative that creates a target that is easy to measure and verify. Or as my ol' man always taught me.... if it's not written down than it didn't happen. He actually taught me that about running a corperation, but I have found it's true in other parts of life as well.



Now to get back on topic.... perhaps we should all try to leave the canyon a little better than we found it.

[jon.moab]

Penny, are you miffed because the canyon was in poor repair or because you did not have "first descent" claim/rights? Both very different topics. The trashing of a canyon, I can understand the frustration this would cause. The other, seems to be a rant of pettiness and nothing more. There may be more to the story, along the lines of Shane's comments. If this is the case, frustration understood. If not, get over it.....

[Eric Holden]

I just say. If you ain't first, you're last.



Also, keep the world clean! When ever I go on a hike, I always come back with more stuff (trash) then I bought.

[Slot Machine]

I hesitate to start this thread. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation, but it seems to me worth pointing out. Penny

What exactly did you point out that hasn't already been pointed out?

[Deathcricket]

What exactly did you point out that hasn't already been pointed out?

That was kinda my thought reading it. It started off good, but then lost coherency and just ended up with "keep the canyons clean". And nothing to misinterpret or even remotely disagree with, as previously stated. But then I remembered some wise words once imparted to me, that have stuck with me my entire life, and everything she said made sense. I now impart them to you in hopes that you will feel the same peace I got.

No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Bonzai

[Iceaxe]

I just say. If you ain't first, you're last.

My years of experiance has really led me to believe there are not any canyon "firsts" left, at least if we are talking canyon descents. So style, documented, first red-head, yada, yada are the only claims left.

I find it hard to believe that the prospectors of the early southwest left much unseen, add in ranchers, surveyors, pot hunters, native Americans, ect. All the time I hear cliams about Lake Powell firsts, but most of those fall apart once you know the entire shoreline of Lake Powell was surveyed before the dam was built. All the time I'm in the middle of frickin' nowhere and encounter survey markers. And I'm not just talking the metal plates most know about. If you know what you are looking for you will find the faded paint and chip marks that were used for running survey strings and turning angles.

Anyhoo... that's my 2 cents on the subject of "first".



And my Favorite Ricky Bobby quote: "Please be 18"

[SRG]

Penny,
If the message, in summary, is that hoping for first descents will inevitably lead to disappointment and that a more important thing to concern oneself with is leaving the canyons in pristine condition... I agree 100%.

Finding crap in a backcountry canyon(or any canyon) is disappointing. Best to carry out as much garbage webbing and trash and free rapid-links/biners as possible

Disappointing or not, I think romanticizing the idea of being somewhere where no human has been(however unlikely) is worthwhile. It is impossible to ever confirm a first descent, but it's fun to imagine.
-Sam

[Mountaineer]

Penny,
If the message, in summary, is that hoping for first descents will inevitably lead to disappointment and that a more important thing to concern oneself with is leaving the canyons in pristine condition... I agree 100%.

Finding crap in a backcountry canyon(or any canyon) is disappointing. Best to carry out as much garbage webbing and trash and free rapid-links/biners as possible

Agree.

The topic on canyon conservation and documentation has been brought up multiple times; to write-up a beta or not, to ghost/bolt it or not, etc. I'll put out my opinion here.

I think there is a place for each. What do I mean?

The first level are the canyons that are well maintained, full of bolts, and are traveled often. I have enjoyed these, but not as much as others. Not so much because of all the bolts, but because you tend to run into a lot of people who are also doing them...I still think they have a place, a gift given to each of us to experience, and grateful they are there.

I enjoy going down canyons that are documented. Even more so, I like the descriptions when they give me just the basics: the longest rappel, outline of possible hazards, then just the entrance waypoint. I can then go through and discover all the obstacles myself. I appreciate the work that others have done so I and my family can safely enjoy these canyons. Besides, these canyons constantly change and even after a few years documentation goes stale...

At the next level, there are those canyons that have been done but have no bolts, webbing, etc. left behind. I have also enjoyed these, as I have learned to "safely" descend them without leaving anything behind so others can enjoy them in the same way. It gives you a challenge; "how do I get through this part?" There are situations where ghosting method(s) may not be safe, and if an anchor should be built for others. Another debate. But I personally have enjoyed "clean" canyons. And I strongly feel they have a place.

At another level: the canyons that may have not been descended for a very long time (if ever). I still believe there are virgin canyons, as alternate routes are likely next door that achieved the same destination (vs. the quest for adventure). Although maybe all the remaining ones are duds or super short? I'm not sure, but believe there has to be some out there. I think most of us lust (to varying degrees) on descending unknown canyons.

Ah well, maybe Shane is right and everything has been done. Maybe we should then all start digging for new caves?

Or...maybe you do a canyon that wasn't documented and looked to be never descended (but you later find it was descended 1..2..10...100 years ago). Does that take away from your experience you had at the time that you did a first descent? Does this beg an argument for not documenting some canyons...hmmm....

I resonate with the book "Blind Descent", the story of Bill Stone's quest for the deepest cave and discovery of new territory. To spend months building new scuba equipment, just to get passed sumps to gain the next area. I, like Bill, also have a passion for adventure. Probably all of us on this forum do. I understand why he and others like him spend their lives doing it. A quote, from George Mallory when asked why would he climb Mt. Everest: "Because it's there".

In summary, I believe there is a place for each of these canyons and how they are documented (or not). In caving, you can't find locations of caves without first becoming part of that community. You must gain trust. Similarly this forum, canyoneering associations, and canyoneering groups, are good avenues in building trust; protecting, preserving, and conserving these resources for us and future generations to enjoy.

[Mountaineer]

The day before our trip one of the guys I asked to join my trip but declined calls to tell me he did the canyon the day before. Now that really pissed me off and I never shared info with that individual again.

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Lame.

[penmartens]

I guess I was so worried about starting another sh**storm that I was unclear. I think Mountaineer got the point for the most part. I just thought it was interesting that people from different perspectives felt the same about finding out someone had gone to 'their' canyon before them. It is wise to go with an idea someone might have already been there. Does it mean we shouldn't go? I don't think so.
I enjoy exploration. I like all the details required to find 'new' canyons; pouring over maps, looking at satelite images, driving old roads, rim walking, ascending from the bottom as far as possible, if at all, etc. There is much more 'buy in' than if you quickly read something on the internet and head out for a day and are back to enjoy cocktails at camp before the shadows get long.
Exploration of the unknown is an important part of adventure (See definition of adventure in traditional dictionaries, not Urban). I could feel the excitement of all that in SRG's TR.
I have several 'firsts' or 'documented firsts' under my belt. I also have a few that fall in the 'thought I was' catergory. I also have several that were such duds no one would care to repeat them unless they had gone through all the effort to find them. Am I sorry for any of them? Only one.
But, what happens when there are no more exploratories because everything has been beta to death? Will people adjust their idea of adventure? Will they just not go?
I think someone touched on it. People will start doing the same canyons differently; going up, going in winter, going at night, going drunk, going naked...Human imagination is unlimited and there is room for many asterics.
What about people who want to do the standard canyon on the standard route in the standard way? There is still plenty of beauty, joy, comradeship, and excitemnt to be had. That is where the conservation comes in. I think everyone got that part.
Apparently, I didn't say anything new or interesting. What a contentious lot! I would apologize for the wasted space but it IS the nets.
Penny

[hesse15]

Ice does the end of the movie remind your past?

[Iceaxe]

Ice does the end of the movie remind your past?

I love that movie.... its a lot more accurate on what its like to race professionally than Days of Thunder ever was. The sponsorship stuff really cracks me up, that part was spot on. And most racers really do have a screw loose some where in there head.

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[yetigonecrazy]

I learned a long time ago in the kayak world that the word "un-run" [in canyoning's case: undescended] to be very, very dangerous terminology.

Instead, today I use a great word that implies both remoteness and a (hopefully) still-wild character : Obscure. Works like a charm.

I guess I just never understood why those who do get first d's sometimes don't claim them. There's a big difference between a TR with beta and simply saying "we did that in 2007". Saying that much doesn't mean you're gloating in your glory. It just clears it up for everyone else at that point so questions like this don't arise.

As for the trash, well....it's a bummer those who traveled before had a lesser ethic of wild places than us. It's a bummer but all we can do is move on and try to clean up after them as much we can!

[ratagonia]

[quote="Penny"]
Comment from an experienced canyoneer and perceived secret keeper, Tom J, on his recent exploratory in Zion:

[quote="ratagonia"]...We wandered, then stumbled toward that big last rappel

[Iceaxe]

I think that taking glory in "publishing first" is also not all that mature, though I succumb to that temptation from time to time, as part of the joy of publishing a good story.

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what your ultimate end-game is in "being first". If you are posting for the simple glory of being first, than yes, I get your point.

If you are posting because you are excited about a new find and want to share your excitement with others than I totally disagree with your stance.

If you are posting from a professional level than I also disagree with your stance as being first has a direct connection to sales volume and your bottomline.


"One winner, 42 losers, I eat losers for breakfast" -Lightning McQueen

[hesse15]

what about those people that would publish first just to have the adrenaline rush of gave some silly name to the place?

[SRG]