Youth Group to Moab

[ratagonia]

I remember being in scouts and we were able to do about whatever we wanted. Obviously there have been some terrible tradgedies in scouting, but now the anticipation of liability by a few money hungry people are hindering the experiences that a lot of young men and women will never encounter.

While I think the current program is a little over the top and gets in the way, I think your statement, 2065Toyota, is a masterful bit of understatement.

If you care to elaborate, I'm curious to know more of your thoughts on this.

It's complicated.

I WISH we lived in a world where scout leaders could just take the kids out and do stuff. And nothing bad would ever happen.

That was how my troop and explorer post ran, when I was a kid, many years ago. Hiking and canoeing were our main things.

But that world actually never existed. Bad things did happen, though few and far between.

As a professional guide working in the private sector, I know what we require of ourselves to take "strangers" out into the canyons. While the training and procedures do not guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen, for my own conscious I know we and I are doing pretty much "everything" "right". It does not mean I don't make mistakes in the field (I do), but it does mean that the mistakes I make are few and far between. I have peed in a cup - but only once.

Scout Leaders in the Salt Lake Council are required to have much of the same training to take their peeps canyoneering. I think this is a good thing. Being who I am, and offering a discount to scout leaders, I have email exchanges with scout leaders from other councils that are not so strict. And I cringe at times. They ask me questions that make me cringe. I try to be polite, and not judgmental, but many scout leaders take their kids on things they do not have the training to take care of "if things go wrong".

Think Zero Gravity, fat kid stuck. If the leader had had a rope, he would have put the kid on belay, and the kid would have been empowered to go down a little further out, and made it through clean. If the leader had had a rope, he probably could have rescued the stuck kid in a few minutes, before he became thoroughly wedged. I would not guide that canyon without a rope tucked into pack. Might not use it, but then again, I might need it. Therefore my claim that the scout leader who took his kids through there without technical training and a rope was negligent. Thankfully, no harm, no foul, except some kid traumatized and some SAR people spent some hours out in the field.

So the BSA and the Church have rules, and scout leaders are expected to follow the rules. And the rules are a pain to follow, but quite frankly the rules make a lot of sense. For instance, to take kids through the Subway, you should have helmets and harnesses for each kid, and two leaders trained in canyoneering, and your group size limit is 12. If you don't meet these conditions, and one of the kids gets hurt, you're on your own. Utah juries are sympathetic to kids in wheelchairs.

As a leader, if you don't follow the rules, then you are not covered by the BSA and Church insurance, and you are on your own. As a side note, if you don't follow the rules, the Church still has liability, for not providing proper supervision.

So, yeah, like many others, I wish the world was less complicated and bad things never happened. But its not, and they do.

Tom

[airman]

Thank you.

[Scott P]

I remember being in scouts and we were able to do about whatever we wanted.

I remember when I was a scout caving was banned because some kid got lost in a mine somewhere (he was found alive and fine a couple days later). I don't remember if it was a scout wide ban our just the Great Salt Lake Council. After that caving trips were "friends" trips rather than official scout activities.

They ask me questions that make me cringe. I try to be polite, and not judgmental, but many scout leaders take their kids on things they do not have the training to take care of "if things go wrong".

I'm not perfect either, but my dad was friends with Dale Green (famous caver) who was one of the people (or perhaps the only one?) whom was asked before hand for information by one of the Boy Scout leaders from the Kolob tragedy. Dale told them that conditions were dangerous and not to attempt the trip with scouts under the conditions. The leader (I don't know which one) was defensive and said something really defensive like "I didn't ask whether I should take the scouts; I asked for information on the route!" or something to that effect. Reports containing the claim that they weren't warned (even if it wasn't from the Park Service) about conditions are false.

[rcwild]

Ok, I'm sufficiently concerned about the liability. Any suggestion on some guides? Called Cliff and Canyons and they want $99 per person. That's crazy expensive and not in our budget.

Consider the costs involved in doing it yourself the right way, meaning in compliance with BSA rules. Becoming a "trained or certified GUIDE" will require quite a bit of time and expense. Becoming a certified climbing instructor directly through BSA is cheap, but it does not cover canyoneering. You can talk to GSLC about participating in their training, but I think they have a waiting list and, needless to say, their first priority will be accommodating leaders in their own council.

You will also need proper gear for every person involved. GSLC put together some gear caches, available to their certified climbing/canyoneering leaders for a small rental fee (to cover maintenance/replacement), but that council covers a small geographic area compared to UNPC. Convenient for leaders to drive somewhere in SLC to pick up gear. It would be a challenge for UNPC to provide gear caches to serve the entire council. That would require a significant number of dispersed caches.

$99 isn't bad if you are only doing a once-in-a-lifetime or once-a-year adventure. If you plan on taking the boys canyoneering frequently, it will add up. Don't be shy about asking guide services to cut you a deal. Many will. I am always happy to help out free if you can coordinate your schedule with my travels.

[Canyonbug]

Dealing with scout groups is something that I have been trying to work through for a couple of years now. All the rules between the BSA and the LDS Church have made things complicated. I have continued to ask for direction and specific rules from varying councils and continue to get different answers from each one. My basic understanding at this point is, as a certified guide if I take the scouts under my own umbrella of Liability then they can go out and have a great time. If we do it under the umbrella of the BSA or the Church, then there is red tape and further certifications that I would have to jump through to be allowed to tie a kid into a rope. It has all become way too complicated.

Rich has been the best resource and biggest help for me in trying to understand all of this. I hope it gets ironed out sometime and becomes a little easier to introduce the boys to a great wilderness experience.

[Iceaxe]

The big problem as I see it is the BSA/LDS church are forced to cover their butt from those swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool.

I loved my time in scouting, I learned a lot of useful stuff I still use today. Often we learned right along with our leader. I was fortunate to have a great leader that allowed us to expand our skills but was blessed with enough commonsense to keep us relatively safe.

Too bad scouts growing up today will miss learning those skills. Sometimes you have to except some risk to grow as a person. But that is not the way of the new Xbox/everyone gets a trophy/never take risks generation.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Brian in SLC]

I didn't really spend a ton of time in scouts, but, what I did was great.

I'll have to say, this statement kinda rankled me a bit:

"...anticipation of liability by a few money hungry people are hindering the experiences that a lot of young men and women will never encounter."

We never had climbing or canyoneering as options when I was a kid. Both those activities have a much bigger risk, IMHO, than just hiking and/or backpacking. I think its just common sense that should dictate that a greater skill set by the leaders of these kids should be the rule, not the exception.

Yeah, those much more technical activities cost more money, and, take more time to acquire the skills for. Nature of the beast.

Most of the SLC'ers that I run into are fairly saavy. Imparting those skills onto kids is pretty neat. Can't be done if the leaders don't have the skills themselves.

[2065toyota]

I'll have to say, this statement kinda rankled me a bit:

"...anticipation of liability by a few money hungry people are hindering the experiences that a lot of young men and women will never encounter."

It was just my opinion, whether it's right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder. It just seems that every action we do now has to have some sort of liabilty insurance whether in business or personal. I don't really see how my statement can be argued against with any type of logic behind it. But there I go again expressing my logical opinion. In the meantime I will continue taking my son's and daughters "friends" on our adventures. The political red tape involved with even breathing anymore has got to change

[Brian in SLC]

It was just my opinion, whether it's right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder. It just seems that every action we do now has to have some sort of liabilty insurance whether in business or personal. I don't really see how my statement can be argued against with any type of logic behind it. But there I go again expressing my logical opinion. In the meantime I will continue taking my son's and daughters "friends" on our adventures. The political red tape involved with even breathing anymore has got to change

Cart before the horse? Personal responsibility and common sense.

Yeah, its kind of a sad situation, to be sure. But...its what the market will bear. Not as much to do with politics as being held accountable for your actions.

Maybe hindering a few of the more negative experiences isn't a bad thing..."money hungry people" or not.

"One call, that's all." Yikes.

May 27, 2011
SALT LAKE CITY — A Utah County woman is suing the LDS Church and her former bishop for injuries she sustained when she fell from a zip line in her bishop's backyard.
In a lawsuit filed in 3rd District Court, Martha Miller claims that on Sept. 22, 2008, she attended an activity for members of her BYU singles ward at the home of her bishop, Kyrt Nay. Other ward members were taking turns on the zip line in the backyard and encouraged Miller to try it. The suit states that she expressed concern to others that there was no harness to secure herself, but she eventually climbed the ladder to the zip line, grabbed the handle, then lost her grip and fell more than 15 feet.
The suit states that Miller sustained a dislocated left elbow and serious back injuries as a result of the fall and has incurred more than $400,000 in medical bills.
She is suing for medical expenses, lost wages and "pain, suffering and loss of enjoyment of life, all to a degree and in an amount not yet fully ascertained but for which she should be entitled to recover upon proof at trial."

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

Dangling from a rope on a rock formation in Big Cottonwood Canyon, Lindsey Enloe knew she was placing her life in her date's hands.

An athletic, outgoing 24-year-old, Enloe was a climbing novice. But Stephen Stinson had supplied all of the equipment, chosen the location for the climb and reassured her he was a 12-year veteran rock climber.

She never imagined the outing would end with her plummeting to the bottom of the rock in a heap.

Enloe, who suffered serious injuries in the April 19, 1997, fall, sued Stinson earlier this month in 3rd District Court. Her negligence claim adds rock climbing to a growing list of outdoor sports prompting lawsuits that ask Utah courts to decide who should bear responsibility when accidents occur.

And although clear precedent exists for accident victims to sue tour groups, resorts or national parks, litigation between people engaging in arguably high-risk outdoor recreation is unusual.

Enloe's Salt Lake City attorneys, Stuart Hinckley and David Burns, have not yet found a similar rock-climbing case in Utah, although they say the case is clear-cut: Stinson told Enloe he was an experienced climber and therefore had a duty to keep her reasonably safe.

Stinson secured nylon climbing webbing, similar to a flat rope, to the top of the rock, but improperly attached that webbing to the nylon rope holding Enloe, the suit alleges. The rope rubbed against the webbing, breaking it and sending Enloe to the ground, the suit said.

The fall left Enloe with a broken pelvis, foot and wrist and a concussion. Her right arm and wrist are permanently impaired and subject to uncontrollable spasms and pain. Enloe also suffered internal injuries and wonders at the age of 29 whether she can bear children.

To add insult to her injuries, Stinson did not tell her he was married at the time of the date, her attorneys said.

Attempts to reach Stinson at his Farmington, Mich., home for comment were unsuccessful.

Enloe met Stinson as he was setting up audio equipment for a charity event she was organizing. Part of his job involved hanging equipment using a harness and ropes, she said.

"When he told me he had been technically climbing for 12ish years, I had no reason to believe otherwise," Enloe said, adding she would not have attempted the climb alone.

But Enloe said she became angry when a friend looked at the equipment Stinson had used and told her it had been set up wrongly, in a mistake the friend said only a rank amateur would make.

At the time, Enloe was living in Salt Lake City but planning a move to Montreal. She has since returned to her hometown of Vernal to be near family and is teaching at a vocational school.

Enloe did not consider suing Stinson until she discussed the accident with another friend, who encouraged her to find out if it could help her pay for mounting medical bills.

University of Utah Law School professor John Flynn, who teaches tort law, said it is rare for one climber to sue another. If successful, the claim could spur others of its kind, pitting more outdoor adventurers against one another when something goes wrong, he said.

Chicago attorney Mitchell Orpett, who heads the American Bar Association's Torts and Insurance Practice Section, said the suit may succeed.

"If this guy is representing himself as an expert, it in essence is really like a suit against an organization supplying expertise," Orpett said. "As a defense lawyer, I would argue that the duty is one of reasonable care, not of perfection and absolute safety."

Utah courts have set high standards for proving negligence in cases related to at least one popular outdoor activity: skiing. Salt Lake attorney Jeffrey Eisenberg han- dled, and lost, a case in which one skier was suing another after an accident. He said the recent filing could face similar obstacles, with courts reluctant to assign blame for sporting mishaps.

The possibility of lawsuits is not a new concern for the all- volunteer Wasatch Mountain Club and similar groups in the West. The WMC requires members or potential members to sign legal waivers before participating in activities.

Legalities aside, Enloe's suit raises the question of how much responsibility a person should take when engaging in outdoor sports - - an issue Curtis Turner, co-director of the club's rock-climbing group, thinks about often.

"No one can ever tell you everything is totally safe," said Turner, 30. "You have to have some common sense and ask some questions. If someone says, 'I know where the trail is,' but he really doesn't and you get lost, should you have gone hiking unless you knew you could make it on your own out there?"

In the meantime, Enloe does not see herself as a victim. Uncomfortable at the thought of being labeled a "money-grubber" for filing the suit, she does not expect the apology she never got. But she does hope the suit could provide her financial restitution and restore her confidence in people.

"I was a very trusting person," Enloe said. "That's changed."

[Kuya]

I don't see it being that complicated. In my BSA troop, We have myself and two other scout leaders who have participated in the BSA climbing instructor course. According to the UNPC the following is required to lead a "climbing" activity:

http://www.utahscouts.org/health-and...climbing/23345

"Please remember that a qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities...To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course."

Furthermore, they tell us where to get the training:

"CLAS Ropes, the Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering are offering multiple training course to Scout leaders. These courses include:

• Climb on Safely Training
• Climb on Safely Instructor Training
• Climbing Instructor Training"

So as far as I am concerned. A UNPC Troop that has:

• Two-deep leadership,
• Two BSA Climbing Instructors who follow the BSA TOPPING OUT guidelines
• CPR Certified Leader and in some cases a Wilderness First Aid Certified Leader (for canyons further away than 1/2 hour drive to medical resources)

will be able to successfully lead an able-bodied scout troop through some scout friendly canyons.

[ilipichicuma]

I think the suing was justified in the second story Brian posted. That guy was just a douche. I see the point, however.

[moab mark]

I don't see it being that complicated. In my BSA troop, We have myself and two other scout leaders who have participated in the BSA climbing instructor course. According to the UNPC the following is required to lead a "climbing" activity:

http://www.utahscouts.org/health-and...climbing/23345

"Please remember that a qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities...To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course."

Furthermore, they tell us where to get the training:

"CLAS Ropes, the Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering are offering multiple training course to Scout leaders. These courses include:

• Climb on Safely Training
• Climb on Safely Instructor Training
• Climbing Instructor Training"

So as far as I am concerned. A UNPC Troop that has:

• Two-deep leadership,
• Two BSA Climbing Instructors who follow the BSA TOPPING OUT guidelines
• CPR Certified Leader and in some cases a Wilderness First Aid Certified Leader (for canyons further away than 1/2 hour drive to medical resources)

will be able to successfully lead an able-bodied scout troop through some scout friendly canyons.

Is your troop affiliated with the LDS Church?

[Brian in SLC]

Jim is a friend, uhh, hold that, lawyer...uhh...make that an "acquaintance"...ha ha. Some funny nuggets here, and, some sad examples:

http://recreation-law.com/category/y...-associations/

[Kuya]

Is your troop affiliated with the LDS Church?

Yes. Why?

[Canyonbug]

Where is Mr. Card? We should have him weighing in on some of the legalities that this discussion has taken.

[moab mark]

Yes. Why?

REAFFIRMING SAFETY GUIDELINES FOR ACTIVITIES
Following are general guidelines for planning activities for members, especially children, youth,
and young single adults. Additional guidelines and policies are found in chapter 13, “Activities,”
of Handbook 2: Administering the Church and at safety.lds.org.
General Guidelines
1. Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose
greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless
led by trained or certified guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High
Adventure bases.

This is what brought us to a screeching halt. Our Local Leaders read this that we have to be Commercial Guides or Scout Sponsored Camps. They are reading Certified as Commercial?

[moab mark]

Doesn't the Scout Climbing Training require two separate anchors and ropes? Seems that would be pretty difficult in the Canyoneering World?

[Kuya]

Doesn't the Scout Climbing Training require two separate anchors and ropes? Seems that would be pretty difficult in the Canyoneering World?

yeah, It is taught that multiple anchor points should be used for rappelling activities. I don't remember anything being taught about a second rope. I will have to review my Topping Out book.

Pertaining to the letter that the church sent out, I guess it is important to understand what they really mean by:

"Activities that pose
greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless
led by trained or certified guides"

Would a leader trained as a "BSA Climbing Instructor" be counted as a trained guide? Those trained at a BSA scout camp would have received similar training and would be managing the climbing courses according to the same Topping Out methodology.

Interesting questions.

[Scott Card]

Where is Mr. Card? We should have him weighing in on some of the legalities that this discussion has taken.

Present!

Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Whether they will win is a matter of evidence. If you get too worked up over all this stuff you will never leave the house nor will you ever be a youth leader. I leave the house and I am a youth leader.

There are really two questions. If I am a youth leader, (1) will someone cover my tail if there is an accident, and (2) if not what makes me at fault therefore responsible financially for an accident?

First, whether the BSA will cover you and indemnify you is up to them. The more you have complied with the rules and regulations the more likely it is that they will cover you with their lawyers. Same goes with the LDS Church I would imagine. If they don't cover you be prepared to declare bankruptcy or at least shell out a small fortune to defend yourself in court, even if you win. If you lose, then declare bankruptcy because you will never be able to pay for the life of an individual (millions of dollars) assuming a life was lost.

As to the case and proof required, what someone would have to prove is that you, as a leader, were negligent. Negligence is established by defining the standard of reasonable conduct and care for those you are leading. How that is established is usually by expert testimony. So, one side of the case would hire a Ram and the other a Tom or a Rich and Charlie (each side would find an expert that agreed with their position) and they would battle it out as to the standard of care that a leader should exercise and why the leader breached or didn't breach that standard of care. The incident would be dissected and analyzed and a jury of likely non-climbers and non-canyoneers would make the decision. Fun huh!

(Edit: Ram, Tom, Rich, Charlie and my to favorites - Spidey and Clark, would all have to be "qualifed" as expert witnesses. Lots of rules and stuff to qualify a person to testify as an expert)

[Scott Card]

Doesn't the Scout Climbing Training require two separate anchors and ropes? Seems that would be pretty difficult in the Canyoneering World?

That is why the scout certification is not too relevant to canyoneering -- hence the reason, I would imagine, that the UNPC has not adopted the Great SLC Council's rules. They are a little like ramming a square peg in a round hole or practicing ping pong to play tennis. Same gripe applies to swimming in a pot hole vs. the BSA regulations. Do you post a life guard at the pot hole? Do you mark depth before getting in the pot hole? Do you walk out in the pot hole to find dangers on the bottom before you go "swimming". These are all rules that don't apply to slot canyons but apply to scouts swimming in a lake. That is the reason I double and triple the swimming requirements of the scouts for my guys to earn my trust in a canyon. (I do generally have a life guard simply because many of my boys are on swim teams). That is why I practice, practice, practice and train like crazy before ever going in a canyon because I can't do the anchor/rope /top rope stuff required by the BSA in a canyon but I can be well prepared and skilled in a canyon for canyoneering and my boys can also be skilled. Common sense and evaluation of the individual skill sets of each boy has to play a big part in the canyon selection but that is a topic for another day.