Youth Group to Moab

[ratagonia]

Medieval Chamber is good, but that final rap might be intimidating for someone with little to no rappelling experience. Be careful.

I was thinking more along the lines of Entrajo for amateurs. Lots of good stuff there, and exits are plentiful in case someone gets cold feet and wants to bail.

Rock Gremlin - That quote is from Stephen Colbert - please do not attribute it to me.

Remember, half of everything on the Internet is fabrication.

Abraham Lincoln (resurrected)

[Iceaxe]

U-turn is also a "white knuckler" as far as the final rap is concerned. Those steep big wall rappels scare the snot outta some folks. Big Horn might be a milder option, with "The Tunnel" a cool attraction on the approach.

Big Horn has a major free-hanging rappel at the end, much worst than U-Turn where you only go free for a couple of feet if using the correct route (staying in the watercourse) and not using one of the stunt rappel routes that is causing issues with the park.

[Kuya]

Edit 2 I do not think Hansen Mountaineering is certified anymore. Contact Rich Carlson over at the American Canyoneering Association. Last I heard he was in charge of Canyoneering for the UNP Council.

Mark

How long have they not been certified? I received mine at the beginning of this year?I hope they were certified when I did it!

[moab mark]

How long have they not been certified? I received mine at the beginning of this year?I hope they were certified when I did it!

You need to contact Rich at the ACA for details.

[PG Rob]

Rich is not involved with the Utah National Parks Council, and has not been for well over a year, maybe 2.

Anyone would be better served by doing the GSLs training than the other 3 mentioned. However, Hansen is still an acceptable option for UNP council.

[moab mark]

Interesting, thanks for the update.

Mark

[Stray]

Just my 2 cents.... but... a 12 to 1 ratio of noobs to skill is not a good thing. There is a reason you don't see professional guides taking out groups with those type of ratios.

I am seconding Ice. I wouldn't take 12 boys even with 2 experienced leaders.

When we did Big Horn with the young women, we had three experienced adult leaders and still we relied on one of the experienced young women to belay and talk them down the final rappel. Usually Big Horn take 4 hours, it took us 8 hours.

With 9 boys on Three Canyons, it tooks 1 1/2 hours to do one rappel.

My recommendation is U-Turn (but beware, I have had rocks sent down toward my head as I was providing a fireman belay on the final rappel).

[Scott Card]

For the UNP Council, contact Clark Wiscomb and/or Steve Jackson at http://darkhorseleadership.com/ They are the guys you need to speak to. Also, they are local and can provide really, really good training that will pass muster. If you want a copy of the letter from the LDS church, PM me and I will send a PDF copy to those who need it.

[airman]

If you want a copy of the letter from the LDS church, PM me and I will send a PDF copy to those who need it.

The letter can be found here: http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...g.pdf?lang=eng

[Scott Card]

Thanks Airman. Now I don't have to send it.

[ratagonia]

Thanks Airman. Now I don't have to send it.

Is that the right letter? (It does not say much).

Tom

[Scott Card]

Is that the right letter? (It does not say much).

Tom

Read on, young Jedi. Look at paragraph 1 of the Safety Guidelines. That is the paragraph that everyone is trying to comply with.

[ratagonia]

I thought I had read a missive that was a lot more specific, but maybe that was the guidelines or draft guidelines for Salt Lake Council.

Tom

[2065toyota]

I remember being in scouts and we were able to do about whatever we wanted. Obviously there have been some terrible tradgedies in scouting, but now the anticipation of liability by a few money hungry people are hindering the experiences that a lot of young men and women will never encounter.

[ratagonia]

I remember being in scouts and we were able to do about whatever we wanted. Obviously there have been some terrible tradgedies in scouting, but now the anticipation of liability by a few money hungry people are hindering the experiences that a lot of young men and women will never encounter.

Ya know, in Kolob, only the LEADERS died, the boys themselves were OK.

(yeah, that was cold...)

While I think the current program is a little over the top and gets in the way, I think your statement, 2065Toyota, is a masterful bit of understatement.

Tom

[airman]

While I think the current program is a little over the top and gets in the way ...

If you care to elaborate, I'm curious to know more of your thoughts on this.

[rockgremlin]

Ya know, in Kolob, only the LEADERS died, the boys themselves were OK.

I thought one of the boys died too.

[Iceaxe]

I thought one of the boys died too.

The group consisted of 3 adult leaders and 5 scouts. Two of the adults died.

Full story here: Kolob Canyon Disaster

[rcwild]

Rich is not involved with the Utah National Parks Council, and has not been for well over a year, maybe 2.

Anyone would be better served by doing the GSLs training than the other 3 mentioned. However, Hansen is still an acceptable option for UNP council.

The Council continued to refer scout leaders to me until about two months ago when I asked them to stop. Until the Council decides to get serious about a climbing/canyoneering program that actually meets BSA guidelines, I prefer not to be involved.

The LDS letter linked in a previous post expresses a church position that is not unlike the BSA's own position. If not a "trained or certified GUIDE, then must be in conjunction with a Scout Camp or High Adventure Base". Receiving a bit of training from a local climbing school does not a guide make.

The Great Salt Lake Council (GSLC) petitioned BSA about creating a special program for canyoneering that relied heavily on standards set by the ACA. It is a program that is not directly addressed in the BSA rules, but an exception. Unless the UNPC adopts a program similar to GSLC's, they are bound to the guidelines above.

[2065toyota]

Short version.

when we take the scouts don't make it public knowledge otherwise they will never get to go