Youth Group to Moab

[Fallen Engle]

Taking about 12 young men to moab this weekend. Want to introduce them to canyoneering. Suggestions? I'll be the only experienced one on the trip. Any suggestions for a good repelling spot so I can instruct them first?

[Kuya]

Not sure about a great place to practice in Moab. I am sure there are good places, but others more knowledgeable will have to help out there. But as far as good routes for a youth group, Medieval Chamber is a great one. It has some awesome rappels. Tier Drop, U-turn are also a lot of fun. Even just spending a 1/2 day in the Fiery Furnace is a blast! I've done all those routes with scouts.

[peakbaggers]

In the past, we have found some spots in the Sand Flats area past the slickrock bike trail. Drive past there and on beyond the end of the pavement. In a couple of miles the road crosses a shallow drainage then turns more to the south and climbs up through a narrow section between large fins. After that, it goes into a dip and then climbs back up again. After it levels off from the climb, there are some old but now closed roads on the right that lead back into some fins. We use to always camp back in there. There was one particular fin that ran north-south in there that was easy to get up on and had some solid trees for anchors. We'd rappel on the east face where there was an easy start and about a 40 foot drop. Getting back up on top again was fairly easy as well. Once you complete your lesson, you could easily take them over to do Medieval Chamber. If you can't find the spot I'm talking about here, there are all kinds of other fins beyond the slickrock trail that would be suitable for instruction. You'd just have to scout around.

[rockgremlin]

Medieval Chamber is good, but that final rap might be intimidating for someone with little to no rappelling experience. Be careful.

I was thinking more along the lines of Entrajo for amateurs. Lots of good stuff there, and exits are plentiful in case someone gets cold feet and wants to bail.

[Iceaxe]

Just my 2 cents.... but... a 12 to 1 ratio of noobs to skill is not a good thing. There is a reason you don't see professional guides taking out groups with those type of ratios.

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[Mountaineer]

Great you have the experience. And honorable of you to volunteer and lead youth groups. Well done.

You may consider Cameltoe. It is a really nice hike, and the single rappel has some good bolts and a large area (and sometimes pool) to wait in. Not very technical, and allows you to do a fun rappel.

I agree with Shane, you definitely need another trained leader.

For what it's worth, there is also another thread recently that touched on liability of scout groups. It is a start, or amendment, on some important points. I led ~20 scouts on a city of rocks trip a couple of years ago, climbing and rappelling for the merit badge. However, once I was given additional information on the liability and rules, I'm not willing to do it again unless BSA will cover it. This means more certs, or going to the BSA climbing school. Something to consider, as the risks are high once you state "I'm the leader".

P.S. Worse, I know there are a lot of leaders out there doing these activities with little to zero training or experience...ugh.

[Eric Holden]

P.S. Worse, I know there are a lot of leaders out there doing these activities with little to zero training or experience...ugh.

Your statement reminded me of this video.....

[rockgremlin]

Your statement reminded me of this video.....

Darwin award candidate.

[Mountaineer]

Your statement reminded me of this video.....

...yes. Glad he is OK. Ouch.
Freedom of the Hills, Page 317+, Techniques of Snow Climbing (and Traversing Snow)

[Kuya]

For what it's worth, there is also another thread recently that touched on liability of scout groups. It is a start, or amendment, on some important points...However, once I was given additional information on the liability and rules, I'm not willing to do it again unless BSA will cover it. This means more certs, or going to the BSA climbing school. Something to consider, as the risks are high once you state "I'm the leader".

Please expound. I am very interested in knowing more about guiding our scout groups. Thanks

Blake

[Eric Holden]

...yes. Glad he is OK. Ouch.
Freedom of the Hills, Page 317+, Techniques of Snow Climbing (and Traversing Snow)

Yea, I thought jump on a hill butt first was the common technique....

[PG Rob]

Rappelling and Canyoneering is a great thing to do with Young Men. They love to be challenged in the outdoors. I regularly take the scouts out, and Moab is a great place for it. I recommend U-Turn, Tierdrop and Dragonfly as excellent routes. Rock of Ages is also a favorite of the Young Men.

Additionally, if you don't already have one, I recommend you purchase a copy of Topping Out. You can buy it at the Orem BSA Office. It explains the BSA rules and safety requirements. A few key points for your review:
Requirement of 2 deep leadership, which I am certain you will have
Requirement of at least 2 qualified instructors must be present to supervise any rappelling activity
The ratio of participants to qualified instructors may not be greater than 6-1

If you cannot meet these and/or other requirements, you will be PERSONALLY liable for anything that happens wrong. In that instance, I recommend you hire a guide. You would then need to do a route outside of Arches NP and Rock of Ages, Medievil Chamber and a few others would be recommendations.

If you already know all this, Great!! If not, it is something to consider.

Have fun and be safe!!

Rob

[Fallen Engle]

Ok, I'm sufficiently concerned about the liability. Any suggestion on some guides? Called Cliff and Canyons and they want $99 per person. That's crazy expensive and not in our budget.

[Mountaineer]

Please expound. I am very interested in knowing more about guiding our scout groups. Thanks

Blake

I think PG Rob hit it, but to further elaborate to qualify as an instructor:

A qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. Contact your local council or regional service center to locate a qualified individual. The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course.

Notice it states instructor training, not climbing training. I also heard (although I can't confirm it - so I'm currently challenging it as none of the written guidelines say this) that the BSA lawyers would fight a case if the instructor did not also take the BSA instructor course from BSA, as their curriculum could be proven different than what the instructor may or may not have... Fun huh?

And we're just trying to volunteer to help some boy scouts.

[burley]

Ok, I'm sufficiently concerned about the liability. Any suggestion on some guides? Called Cliff and Canyons and they want $99 per person. That's crazy expensive and not in our budget.

BSA has their own 'guide' system. PM Sent.

[PG Rob]

On Utah National Parks website they specify that the training from 3 places would qualify you... Hansen Mountaineering, Quarry and KLaS ropes. With that training for 2 adults and following "Topping Out" guidelines you should feel perfectly comfortable from a legal standpoint.

Look up Steve Jackson as a guide.

[Kuya]

On Utah National Parks website they specify that the training from 3 places would qualify you... Hansen Mountaineering, Quarry and KLaS ropes. With that training for 2 adults and following "Topping Out" guidelines you should feel perfectly comfortable from a legal standpoint.

Look up Steve Jackson as a guide.

Perfect. Myself and the other leaders in our Troop received training from Hansons this year. So we should be good to go. Especially since it is stated on the council website. Good to know. Thanks!

[rockgremlin]

U-turn is also a "white knuckler" as far as the final rap is concerned. Those steep big wall rappels scare the snot outta some folks. Big Horn might be a milder option, with "The Tunnel" a cool attraction on the approach.

[Kuya]

Any suggestions for a good repelling spot so I can instruct them first?

I suggest next time taking them to Red Ledges to practice a week or so in advance to prep them. sometimes we even sling a rope over basketball stand and let them descend a few feet just to get a feel for it.

[moab mark]

GSL council has changed the rules drastically for Canyoneering. Trappers and UNP council are a little behind. I would imagine your Scout troop is part of the LDS Church. If it is the Church came out with a letter about a year ago basically stating (correct me if I am wrong those of you that have read the letter ) something in the line of you have to have to two certified leaders, for each 6 boys. To get certified you have to take a class from one of the Certified Teaching Services or GSL has a program you can go through. These classes our pretty cumbersome for the average leader. I use to take lots of Youth Groups Canyoneering but I have quit. It is two hard to find two individuals in a troop willing to go thru all the hoops to get certified now. Between the Church's letter and the new BSA rules you probably will not be covered if something goes wrong. There is a long thread somewhere on Bogley discussing this. If you get enough leadership I would recommend Elephant Butte U Turn and Rock of Ages.

Edit for just rappeling you can set up multiple ropes off of the guardrail or use a vehicle as an anchor right before the pay hut heading out to Sand Flats. Nice 30' rappel that you can go right back around and do it again.

Edit 2 I do not think Hansen Mountaineering is certified anymore. Contact Rich Carlson over at the American Canyoneering Association. Last I heard he was in charge of Canyoneering for the UNP Council.

Mark