New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

[ratagonia]

I usually am the meat anchor for my party at the boulder. Everyone would handline or rap off of me then I would carefully lasso the horn of the boulder and hand line down. With these new anchors, some of my "I'm the man" status with future parties just went away I'll have you know. I'll need a note now to prove that I used to be "the man."

If you scurry to the front and put your pack atop the bolts, then no one will know they are there... and you can still be "the man!".

Tom

[Scott P]

Downclimbing the boulder:



Pretty easy to upclimb as well, especially with a partner.

[ratagonia]

Downclimbing the boulder:

It's even easier to upclimb, especially with a partner.

Yeah, except the ground is about 2 feet lower now, so the bottom 5 feet is pretty hard.

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Yeah, except the ground is about 2 feet lower now, so the bottom 5 feet is pretty hard.

Tom

We're bolting that downclimb? Even at 5', with a possible partner assist; I agree this looks safe and easy. But alas, I suppose we're talking about the subway...

[ratagonia]

We're bolting that downclimb? Even at 5', with a possible partner assist; I agree this looks safe and easy. But alas, I suppose we're talking about the subway...

Nope. Someone bolted that rappel. You have not been there, Mountaineer? You're missing out!

Downclimbs are rather difficult to judge from a picture.

6650 people a year go through there. Maybe more, that was the 2004 number.

http://www.archive.canyoneeringusa.c.../data2001b.htm
http://www.archive.canyoneeringusa.c...Statistics.pdf

There is even a walk-around, but it is entirely inobvious, and most people don't know about it.

Tom

[Eric Holden]

Pictures, got to love pictures. See bolts on top of boulder, and rappel.

[Mountaineer]

Nope. Someone bolted that rappel. You have not been there, Mountaineer? You're missing out!

Downclimbs are rather difficult to judge from a picture.

Truly missing out, it is on my list for sure.

Re: downclimbing; There have been many times I've done a rappel, then looked back up and thought "hey, I could have down climbed that one". But then again, both my ankles were still intact and carried me out... Thus in contrast, I'm sure there are ones that I could have taken a bigger risk on and perhaps not have been so lucky.

Improved judgement comes with experience combined with ability. I really like your suggestion of belaying the down climbs (that can be reasonably belayed) as a method for improvement in both judgement and ability...

[SRG]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

[ratagonia]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

It is, but the floor there has also gotten 2 feet lower.

Some of us break a lot easier than we did a few decades ago...

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

This is what I've done both times I did the Subway. It wasn't bad. I've definitely had worse down climbs.

[2065toyota]

We have always used the rabbit hole. It has seemed to be the fastest and safest

[Stray]

It always seemed odd to bring harnesses and rope for one 10 foot rappel.

OTOH, I hope the canyon still has the left side hand line bolts. I really don't want to round up that many harnesses for my scout troop.

[ratagonia]

It always seemed odd to bring harnesses and rope for one 10 foot rappel.

OTOH, I hope the canyon still has the left side hand line bolts. I really don't want to round up that many harnesses for my scout troop.

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling, I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.

Uh oh, I'm headed toward my handline rant... which will not be well-received here on the Bog -- so I won't. But DO be clear that as a scout leader, if you do not bring harnesses in there and rappel, when some kid breaks his ankle it will be on you, as BSA insurance does not cover leaders acting irresponsibly.

Fewer broken ankles and knees in there this year, as opposed to previous years.

Anyway, I think your boys will like the rabbit hole next time.

When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline. I set up an anchor in what I thought was the best location, but it is still not a handlineable place, as I could not find one.

Tom

[hike.higher]

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling, I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.

Uh oh, I'm headed toward my handline rant... which will not be well-received here on the Bog -- so I won't. But DO be clear that as a scout leader, if you do not bring harnesses in there and rappel, when some kid breaks his ankle it will be on you, as BSA insurance does not cover leaders acting irresponsibly.

This is a good catch 22 with the scouts. I bet the scout insurance wouldn't cover you either way unless you have all sorts of certifications. To do a canyon with any rappelling the BSA requires that you are canyon certified. this requires that you are also climbing certified. Two fairly onerous requirements.

But, if you don't want to rappel and only handline and someone gets hurt than the BSA will reference the NPS material and not cover you for your irresponsibility.

Tough break.

[Eric Holden]

When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline.
Tom

With a running start, you could jump it

[Stray]

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling

Clearly the NPS cannot be recommending they rap off your new bolts as they were not there when the recommendation was written (and I doubt they would recommend rapping off the log in the waterfall).

I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.

I cannot think of any place in subway that has anything larger than a 8 foot downclimb. Subway downclimbing skills is what we are working on. OTOH, we do bring the rope, webbing and harness (just in case something has changed dramatically).

When we are working on rappelling, we go somewhere else. When we did Three Canyons, it took us 1 1/2 hours to complete the first and only rap. I don't want slow others down and I want to complete the canyon before nightfall.

<beginning of rant deleted/>

Anyway, I think your boys will like the rabbit hole next time.

Where is the rabbit hole?

When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline. I set up an anchor in what I thought was the best location, but it is still not a handlineable place, as I could not find one.

Tom

I like having the new rappel setup on the right side LDC. I also like having the bolts on the left side that can be used as a rap or a downclimb. OTOH, I still plan on using the 6 foot downclimb that requires some partner assist. (I would never dream of having someone as old as you attempting to make either downclimb )

I never thought I would say this, but thank you for bolting this side of the canyon.

[Stray]

With a running start, you could jump it

Yeah, I have had to talk a 16 years old out of making that jump.

[Iceaxe]

Where is the rabbit hole?

From Climb-Utah.com

"Follow Left Fork downstream as the obstacle course begins. The first major obstacle is a large boulder. Experienced canyoneers can downclimb the front of the boulder. There is a route around the north (right) side of the boulder that looks inviting but that is the worst of the options and requires an awkward rappel. The best way around the boulder is to look over against the south (left) canyon wall. If you look carefully you will notice a large hole that you can downclimb through. The hole is somewhat hidden and is overlooked by most parties, but finding the hole will make this obstacle easy to bypass."


The rabbit hole is the only way to go. It's easy, simple, no chance of injury and a fun way to defeat the obstacle. It's even more fun when a group is bottlenecked up at the boulder trying to get everyone down and you walk over to the left and crawl through the rabbit hole and walk around moving your group of 8 efficiently through while the other group is working on getting one guy down.

[ratagonia]

From Climb-Utah.com

"Follow Left Fork downstream as the obstacle course begins. The first major obstacle is a large boulder. Experienced canyoneers can downclimb the front of the boulder. There is a route around the north (right) side of the boulder that looks inviting but that is the worst of the options and requires an awkward rappel. The best way around the boulder is to look over against the south (left) canyon wall. If you look carefully you will notice a large hole that you can downclimb through. The hole is somewhat hidden and is overlooked by most parties, but finding the hole will make this obstacle easy to bypass."


The rabbit hole is the only way to go. It's easy, simple, no chance of injury and a fun way to defeat the obstacle. It's even more fun when a group is bottlenecked up at the boulder trying to get everyone down and you walk over to the left and crawl through the rabbit hole and walk around moving your group of 8 efficiently through while the other group is working on getting one guy down.

Good description.

When you look over at it, it sure is inobvious. There is a cairn over there now, next to the hole that is next to the rabbit hole.

I no longer downclimb at Keyhole Falls. The landing is bad, often bowling balls hidden in the swirling water. I sprained the same ankle there twice, six months apart; thus I decided using a rope there makes a great deal of sense.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Clearly the NPS cannot be recommending they rap off your new bolts as they were not there when the recommendation was written (and I doubt they would recommend rapping off the log in the waterfall).

That's not what I said. The NPS does not recommend specific anchors; the do recommend bringing ropes and harnesses and rappelling... I would pull the exact wording off my last permit if I could find it.

I cannot think of any place in subway that has anything larger than a 8 foot downclimb. Subway downclimbing skills is what we are working on. OTOH, we do bring the rope, webbing and harness (just in case something has changed dramatically).

Tell it to the judge!

Just so you know, if one of those kids gets hurt, it is on you. The BSA and the Church will not back you up on this matter.

I like having the new rappel setup on the right side LDC. I also like having the bolts on the left side that can be used as a rap or a downclimb. OTOH, I still plan on using the 6 foot downclimb that requires some partner assist. (I would never dream of having someone as old as you attempting to make either downclimb )

I never thought I would say this, but thank you for bolting this side of the canyon.

Thank you. For the second one.

I used to do that downclimb at the end back when I was only like 90, but now that I am like 100, dropping 8 feet on to the hard sand is just too risky...