New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

[ratagonia]

New Post regarding anchor work in the Subway.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...ork-sept-2012/

Ready..... Discuss!

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Why did you remove one of the bolts at the handlining station? Even with your views on handlining, seems you would rather have the handliners handlining off of two bolts instead of just one, no?

[2065toyota]

I also wondered earlier this year the lifespan on the logs at the last obstacle. I did not spend much time looking around for another bypass but I do believe this was inevitable

[Deathcricket]

Why did you remove one of the bolts at the handlining station? Even with your views on handlining, seems you would rather have the handliners handlining off of two bolts instead of just one, no?

LOL I wasn't gonna even read it, but now I'm curious. My guess is he wants to control what people do in a canyon, or he believes bolts are an eyesore and interferes with his enjoyment of nature. But you got me curious now, thanks.

[Shooter McCanyon]

Did the subway a few days ago and noticed the nice shiny bolts on the boulder and on the right side of the last rappel. Found downclimbing the front of the boulder to be fairly easy. Setup an anchor on one of the remaining jammed logs at the waterfall because the rappel looked like a blast. It was. Climbed back up and removed the anchor considering what recently occurred there (not that the anchor was the issue).

Those bolts will definitely come in handy if the logs wash away.

TR Forthcoming.....

[Bootboy]

Why not put bolts on the wall above the logs?

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sure what to think about this....

Are we going to dumb all canyons down to the lowest common denominator or just this one? Why not just place a ladder at all the problems. Or maybe we should just chop a giant staircase into the caanyon wall?

but my other though is..... if you are going to dumb it down you might as well do it right.

[2065toyota]

The underlying problem with subway is that alot people do not read trail descriptions and go in thinking its just a hike. While to the majority on here it is there are a lot who consider that extreme. I have talked to a lot of people who acknowledged that it was more difficult than expected. I think this canyon has to be made accessible to the public. If you don't like the anchors then don't use them. I'm sure when you enter the subway it's like entering pine creek. It is great fun but don't expect a complete wilderness experience. Enjoy it for what it is. Or complain enough so they drop the permit numbers and then complain you can't get a permit

[Iceaxe]

One other thought.... perhaps all bolts should be pulled at the big bolder. Maybe some that can't figure it out and don't really belong will turn around.

maybe the warning on your permit should read "technical gear required".... after all... those type of warnings was the orginal intent of requiring permits in Zion.

[Scott P]

...

[Brian in SLC]

Ahhh...I likes me some vertically oriented anchors...

Tom, mad bolter, mad bolt chopper...ha ha. Can't keep his hand out of the cookie jar...

[ratagonia]

One other thought.... perhaps all bolts should be pulled at the big bolder. Maybe some that can't figure it out and don't really belong will turn around.

No, they don't turn around.

The other spring: people rent dry-pants for the Subway. Arrive at the Left Fork with considerable flow - they go forward.

T

[ratagonia]

Why not put bolts on the wall above the logs?

That would put people directly in the waterflow for the rappel.

Are you perhaps thinking creating a Via Ferrata so that people can zip across to the other side? I doubt the NPS would think this was a good idea. This is a less-industrial solution.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

No, they don't turn around.

The other spring: people rent dry-pants for the Subway. Arrive at the Left Fork with considerable flow - they go forward.

T

That happened. I was there.

[ratagonia]

Ahhh...I likes me some vertically oriented anchors...

You mean, like this?

[Scott Card]

I usually am the meat anchor for my party at the boulder. Everyone would handline or rap off of me then I would carefully lasso the horn of the boulder and hand line down. With these new anchors, some of my "I'm the man" status with future parties just went away I'll have you know. I'll need a note now to prove that I used to be "the man."

[Brian in SLC]

You mean, like this?

Indeed I do!

[Bootboy]

That would put people directly in the waterflow for the rappel.

Are you perhaps thinking creating a Via Ferrata so that people can zip across to the other side? I doubt the NPS would think this was a good idea. This is a less-industrial solution.

Tom

No via feratta... That's absurd. When we rigged the "deadly anchor" off the logs, we were not in the falls, you could reach the falls with your foot but you were not IN the falls.

[Iceaxe]

Putting the anchors where bootyboy suggests is no different than the keyhole falls anchors just before. It is also the first place people will look to find anchors.

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[ratagonia]

Putting the anchors where bootyboy suggests is no different than the keyhole falls anchors just before. It is also the first place people will look to find anchors.

Just to be clear, I put in the final anchor for when the logs wash out and getting to the other side becomes more difficult.

One goal was to make anchors useful for high water / winter conditions.

Another goal was to make anchors usable for people with minimal skills.

The position suggested I don't think would have met BOTH of these criteria at the same time. If they were easy to reach, they would have put the rappeller in the waterflow. If they kept you out of the waterflow, they would have been hard to reach.

Tom