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Thread: New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

  1. #41

    Re: New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I no longer downclimb at Keyhole Falls. The landing is bad, often bowling balls hidden in the swirling water.
    FWIW: Since September Keyhole Falls has a nice big sandy landing and a big log to down climb, but I'm sure that will change greatly with spring runoff.

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  3. #42
    Is this the wording you were talking about?

    Canyoneering: Never enter a technical canyon without the knowledge and skills needed to safely explore and return. Rappelling and down-climbing skills are required to navigate through the Subway. Do not jump. Jumping in Zion's canyons have resulted in many broken bones. The Subway route requires excellent map reading skills to navigate. GPS coordinates are only references and may or may not be accurate and a GPS has limited capabilities in canyons. Do not rely on them as the sole method of navigation. Always check your position with a detailed map before dropping into a canyon.
    or this?

    Difficulty: This is a technical canyon where rappelling and down-climbing skills are required, but these obstacles can be avoided by hiking from the bottom into the Subway.
    Pulled from http://www.zionnational-park.com/zio...ark-subway.htm

  4. #43
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    Is this the wording you were talking about?

    or this?

    Pulled from http://www.zionnational-park.com/zio...ark-subway.htm
    While Tanya's site is a great resource, it does not represent official policy of Zion National Park.

    Official Policy is:

    Quote Originally Posted by NPS Zion
    The Subway -
    From the Top Down
    This is a strenuous 9.5-mile hike that requires rappelling skills, 60 feet of rope, and extensive route finding experience. The route also requires swimming through several deep pools of very cold debris-filled water. The trail begins at the Wildcat Canyon Trailhead and ends at the Left Fork Trailhead. Both trailheads are located on the Kolob Terrace Road.


    http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/thesubway.htm

    Tom

  5. #44
    This is sad.

    Subway always held a special place for me because of the fact that you could show up on a hot summer day with just swimming trunks, good shoes, and a few feet of rope.

    It was my first canyon many many years ago, and was with the Boy Scouts. We had a fantastic time and I felt like we had just gone through a huge adventure. Amazing. Didn't use harnesses then, and don't now when I take friends.

    With an experienced person going first so that there is someone on the bottom to spot in the event someone falls, I don't think any of the hand lines are especially high risk. Although I always tend to be the one to get stuck in the cold water....

    Is sad that access to the low slanting face on the final rappel may be disappearing soon.

    Is also surprising that it is considered negligence to take someone on the subway sans harnesses.

    Sometimes it's just nice to leave the gear at home on a hot summer day with low water flow. Oh well. The Subway will still be worth doing even if I do need to bring harnesses along.

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  7. #45
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rurri View Post
    This is sad.

    Subway always held a special place for me because of the fact that you could show up on a hot summer day with just swimming trunks, good shoes, and a few feet of rope.

    It was my first canyon many many years ago, and was with the Boy Scouts. We had a fantastic time and I felt like we had just gone through a huge adventure. Amazing. Didn't use harnesses then, and don't now when I take friends.

    With an experienced person going first so that there is someone on the bottom to spot in the event someone falls, I don't think any of the hand lines are especially high risk. Although I always tend to be the one to get stuck in the cold water....

    Is sad that access to the low slanting face on the final rappel may be disappearing soon.

    Is also surprising that it is considered negligence to take someone on the subway sans harnesses.

    Sometimes it's just nice to leave the gear at home on a hot summer day with low water flow. Oh well. The Subway will still be worth doing even if I do need to bring harnesses along.
    It is not REQUIRED that you bring harnesses and rappel. But, if you are leading innocent victims into its maw, it is recommended that you at least have that capability. Make your own choices, live by the consequences. If your friend falls badly and loses use of their legs, and since the Park recommends something and you did not do it, you will lose all your possessions.

    Just sayin'...

    Tom

  8. #46
    I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.

  9. #47

    New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.
    How do you figure?

    They are oblivious to the logs existence and would have no knowledge of their absence.

  10. #48
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.
    Shane.........

    such the curmudgeon...

    I disagree. I think it will be sad that the Subway can no longer "safely" be handlined. And there will be a difficult transition period.

    Tom

  11. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootboy View Post
    How do you figure?

    They are oblivious to the logs existence and would have no knowledge of their absence.

    I figure once the logs wash out you will have to rappel the final drop. I'm sure the NPS will be notified of the new obstacle almost immediately because they will be forced to conduct a couple dozen rescues...... after that I assume they will put some type of notification in place warning the canyon has change and now requires technical gear..... could also make signing off on a notification part of picking up your permit.

    And I figure that will take care of about 90% of the gumbies.... the other 10% will continue to try the route and end up in trouble, but you can't fix stupid.


    Anyhoo.... that's what I see peering into my crystal ball.


  12. #50

    New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

    Couldn't you still jump across?

  13. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    It is not REQUIRED that you bring harnesses and rappel. But, if you are leading innocent victims into its maw, it is recommended that you at least have that capability. Make your own choices, live by the consequences. If your friend falls badly and loses use of their legs, and since the Park recommends something and you did not do it, you will lose all your possessions.

    Just sayin'...

    Tom
    I would hope that I was devastated that something terrible happened to a friend. Not about the loss of my possessions. This is why I think all of us try to minimize risk as much as we can. Not because we are worried about lawsuits, but because we feel a responsibility to those we take with us and that put their trust in us.

    We all want to increase safety, but that always means trade offs. Otherwise we would just stay inside.

    Let's all be safe out there.

  14. #52
    I figure once the logs wash out you will have to rappel the final drop.
    I don't think I'd agree. Dating back to ages 11 & 13, we've climbed up and down that drop many times. In the 1980's there used to be a big log that aided the ascent, but it was hard to downclimb and we used to just downclimb the drop that is the rappel. Now days, many people still climb up and down that drop (partner assist at the bottom), especially those hiking in from the bottom because they usually don't bring harness and rope.

    Lest anyone understand, I am not recommending anyone downclimb that drop as it is easy to break an ankle on the last few feet. Rappelling it is much safer. What I am saying is that people will still upclimb and downclimb it with or without the logs and that I don't think rescues will go down that much.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  15. #53
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootboy View Post
    Couldn't you still jump across?
    Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say, with the logs there. Seems like neither the takeoff nor the landing are all that good.

    And, just to be clear, even if you and I, Bootboy, could make the jump, I'm not sure 50% of Subway hikers could.

    Tom

  16. #54
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    I don't think I'd agree. Dating back to ages 11 & 13, we've climbed up and down that drop many times. In the 1980's there used to be a big log that aided the ascent, but it was hard to downclimb and we used to just downclimb the drop that is the rappel. Now days, many people still climb up and down that drop (partner assist at the bottom), especially those hiking in from the bottom because they usually don't bring harness and rope.

    Lest anyone understand, I am not recommending anyone downclimb that drop as it is easy to break an ankle on the last few feet. Rappelling it is much safer. What I am saying is that people will still upclimb and downclimb it with or without the logs and that I don't think rescues will go down that much.
    I think you lost track of what we were talking about, Scott. We be talking about the logs that allow access to the left side bench, near the end. These logs:

    Tom
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  17. #55
    Hope I am not resurrecting a thread that is too old, but I am insterested...

    Anyone have any update on these logs used to traverse over to the left side for the handline? Will be going down Memorial Day weekend, would be good information to have.

  18. #56
    Logs are there and in good condition. There is also new webbing on Tom's new anchors also. We went through on April 28, 2013

  19. #57
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rurri View Post
    This is why I think all of us try to minimize risk as much as we can.
    But you just said that you don't.

    Tom

  20. #58
    i have always handlined Subway and Orderville due to the fact that i don't feel it is nessisary to bring the gear. Tom is rigt about scouting groups it is a pain in the but to go through all the training and nessisary equiptment to take a official scout group down a technical slot canyon.

    Just curious do you think on the new achor at Keyhole could you use a J-hook around your foot for added friction and handline down that way. Its the way we CrossFitter's climb rope. Just a thought.

    A harness would abvioulsy be the safter route.
    IT ALWAYS LOOKS HIGHER FROM THE TOP!!!!

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