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Thread: So... I'm leading my first canyon today

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

    Pine Creek speed descent? Interesting. The lads improved their times going to rope bags, for sure. But, toss and go with coils they still were so much faster than anyone else...

    Fast and good is fast and good, no matter coil or bag.

    Be fun to have a comp, though. Take the best bagger, and, the best coiler, time them, then, have them trade techniques. Best average time wins.

    Fun to ponder, Hank! You and me gonna race? Ha ha...Pine Creek in three, two, one...(still haven't gone sub one hour yet...dang it, 1:01 is still my fastest time pavement-to-pavement).
    Ohh OHH ohh! We should do this! I volunteer our Z-crew to compete with the coilers team. We have a 2 person coil method for a 300 footer that cannot be beat. I should video it sometime and put-er-up. One guy starts coiling while the other guy starts the rope pull, then he starts from the other end once the rope drops from the ring up top. It's genius!
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

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  4. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.
    x2

    This is one of the rare times I've ever disagreed with the hankster...


  5. #43
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Yeap yeap! 2 great vids guys, that's pretty much exactly what I do except single stranded (like around 5:20 in Brians vid) and of course don't turn it into a backpack, just hang it from the top strap of my existing backpack.

    Not really a fan of rope bags. My buddy @Deeps teases me mercilessly for it. :) They are nice don't get me wrong, especially when bushwhacking is involved, but they just take so long to load up. I've seen people hang them from their chin straps, chest, waist, etc, etc while loading... But I have yet to see an efficient way to pack them. it's like you gotta do it one foot at a time, vs the other way 6 feet at a time. Both guys in each video got theirs done in under 3 mins while even stopping to explain the procedure. I wonder if there is data on the load times some place. Someone should do a study.
    Here's how the A-Team stuffs a ropebag:

    http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropebags2.php

    Easy, efficient, minimizes tangling problems.

    Tom

  6. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.
    ok, "good" then. Semantics - sheesh. Rope bags offer the possibility of increased speed (vs. using coils) - especially in wet canyons. Any rope management comp. would include throwing the rope down wet drops, leapfroggin, blocking single lines, etc. There's just no way a coiler can best a good bagger. Remember all the sunken coil treasure that used to wash up in Heaps? hahaha.

    No comparison, really. I'll take on any coiler slime - any time.

  7. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Ohh OHH ohh! We should do this! I volunteer our Z-crew to compete with the coilers team. We have a 2 person coil method for a 300 footer that cannot be beat. I should video it sometime and put-er-up. One guy starts coiling while the other guy starts the rope pull, then he starts from the other end once the rope drops from the ring up top. It's genius!
    Sounds good in a dry canyon, but think about a pull point 30' out from the plumb line and the rope landing in 20' deep water (e.g. steep-sided pothole).

  8. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    No comparison, really. I'll take on any coiler slime - any time.
    Them's fightin' words.

    60m ropes at 30 paces. Pick your venue. Ha ha.

    Actually a wet Pine Creek would be super.

    I can run and coil a rope at the same time...(ok, maybe not, since I can barely chew gum and walk at the same time).

    Its on like donkey kong!

  9. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Sounds good in a dry canyon, but think about a pull point 30' out from the plumb line and the rope landing in 20' deep water (e.g. steep-sided pothole).
    well on a tough pull like that, the "coiler" would most likely keep up with the "puller" anyways. So not sure your one rare example holds up to scrutiny. But the only way is to test. Winner gets the other guy's rope!
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  10. #48
    That's like racin' for pink slips! Ha ha...

    Yeah, I got a crappy old rope ready for the dumpster that I'd rappel on...

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  12. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    well on a tough pull like that, the "coiler" would most likely keep up with the "puller" anyways. So not sure your one rare example holds up to scrutiny. But the only way is to test. Winner gets the other guy's rope!
    forget the dimensions and focus on the scenario: swimmer landing, bit of swimming to a pull/pack/coil point. it's not at all rare...

  13. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Them's fightin' words.

    60m ropes at 30 paces. Pick your venue. Ha ha.

    Actually a wet Pine Creek would be super.

    I can run and coil a rope at the same time...(ok, maybe not, since I can barely chew gum and walk at the same time).

    Its on like donkey kong!
    Gotta have some rules.

    Here's some to get it started:

    The contest is about rope management, not how fast one moves through the canyon. so...time for each evolution starts when the rope (reasonably secured to the canyoneer, not simply in hand) is touched, and ends when the rope is coiled or packed and again reasonably secured to the canyoneer. Coilers must take normal precautions to prevent rope loss due to sinkage. Penalty points for swimming with an unsecured rope. Rope bags are assumed to float the rope (though there have been cases where this didn't happen).

    Edit: time stops during rappel operations - only deployment/securing/repacking is timed.

    Next?

  14. #51
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    So....

    Remember where this thread started. With problems of deployment. Yes, DiscGo was using the WORST possible coiling method, but his problem was in deploying the incredibly kinked up rope.

    I make no claim that bagging is faster than coiling. A good coiler and a good bagger I think are pretty evenly matched. But the key point of the ropebag is that the rope is ready to DEPLOY, while a coiled rope is only somewhat ready. Working the overall cycle (deploy rope, rappel, pull rope, bag or coil) the bag will be faster, period.

    At the end of the day, I often coil the rope, because me coiling the rope is gonna be faster than almost anyone else (Hankster excepted) bagging it. And that way, the hero carrying the big rope is relieved of also carrying the rope silo, which can be passed to a lesser person, such as me.

    Christmas party? Say, about 9 pm when all contestants are adequately lubed up?

    Tom

  15. #52
    They ain't no canyons at the Holidaze party, Tom! Coilin' v baggin' a rope in the snow? Brrr. I'd win that one...ha ha. Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    The contest is about rope management, not how fast one moves through the canyon.
    I ain't a gonna win no foot race, that's fo sho.

    But, yeah, clock starts at the first rappel stance in Pine Creek (the first real one, not that approach thing). Butterfly coil on back. Rope bag on harness? Works for me. Then...go.

    Clock stops at last rappel when rope is coiled and on back, or, rope is in bag and attached to harness.

    Distance between the drops is short for the most part. Couple long hall ways to keep the rope draggers honest, but, not so long that foot speed is a huge deal.

    Problem would be to try to find Pine Creek in uncrowded enough conditions to allow a race. Which, makes the playing field even more level...do it at night, with a headlamp. Can't run fast and have to be in control enough not to crash and burn. Or, you could just say "speed walking" and no running. That'd work better for me (ha ha).

    Ropes. Pick your poison or have someone provide two of the same?

    We'll need a party at the front and back with stop watches. One of us gets a 10 minute head start. Or, we time ourselves (easy enough). Flip to see who goes first. Support crew to include a frosty cold IPA at the bottom of the last rappel.

  16. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Edit: time stops during rappel operations - only deployment/securing/repacking is timed.
    Rope bag v coil is part of the system. System needs to be tested and advantages of each as part of the system would have to be tested, so, the movement from rappel station to rappel station, negotiating water, securing the rope, bagging or coiling, moving to next station, re-deploying, all are part of the system. Only fair way to measure the difference in how each works in the system is to test them as part of the system, not, just deploy/secure/repack. What can make the rope coil system quicker, is, I can do it on the move. I can pull, be coiling, and, be moving towards the next anchor, all at once. Sure, if I drag my rope and its all clustered and gets stuck on some rocks, or, in some roots/debris, then, that's a risk of that method. All part of the game.

    I'd think you'd want to rappel as part of the time. Beauty of the rope bag is being able to toss the whole thing down. On lower angle rappels, I'd have two rope ends to deal with getting down the rappel. You'd have one if you blocked, rapped, and tossed the bag.

    Which is why Pine Creek is the perfect venue. Has enough drops, enough terrain, enough hazards, mix of close and far anchors. Works.

    I might concede that if we were standing at a steep drop, and, all you had to do is feed one end through an anchor, lower the rope to the ground and toss the bag down, then, stuff it back in the bag, that you'd be quicker. But, if you're married to the bag as a system, then, it needs to apply to the canyon, and, not just a single anchor, drop, bag up.

    If that was the case, then a holidaze party race would work. Deploy down a stairway to "someones" house (ha ha), then, bag or coil at the bottom. I'd still race ya! Not givin' me good odds, though...

  17. #54
    Uhhh that sounds very dangerous.....

    How about you just record the deployment, and "cleanup" of each rap? Then add the times together and post a vid. Someone else does the same thing and we compare notes? People rap at different speeds and once the rope is packed, travel time between obstacle is irrelevant IMO. Although I will fully admit when bushwhacking is involved, not snagging your rope because it's in a bag is a huge plus......

    Plus I know at least 3 places in pine creek where people rap and our crew just jumps it....
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  18. #55
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Uhhh that sounds very dangerous.....

    How about you just record the deployment, and "cleanup" of each rap? Then add the times together and post a vid. Someone else does the same thing and we compare notes? People rap at different speeds and once the rope is packed, travel time between obstacle is irrelevant IMO. Although I will fully admit when bushwhacking is involved, not snagging your rope because it's in a bag is a huge plus......

    Plus I know at least 3 places in pine creek where people rap and our crew just jumps it....
    Dangerous? Sounds like a demonstration of proficiency.

    Could do the whole thing via GoPro. The truly motivated might make multiple passes...

    A shorter drive for me than for most.

    T

  19. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Could do the whole thing via GoPro. The truly motivated might make multiple passes...
    Set up ascent rope to access canyon overlook trail for ez repeat - aren't there some anchors just above the cathedral?

  20. #57
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    They ain't no canyons at the Holidaze party, Tom! Coilin' v baggin' a rope in the snow? Brrr. I'd win that one...ha ha. Maybe.
    Might be a bit of an impetus to move faster... ha ha ha.

    T

  21. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Don't ya play that game, though? Its one of my fav's.

    You eyeball the drop. Estimate the distance. Play out what you think is the perfect amount of rope. Toss. If the end barely grazes the ground, you win!

    My arm length for rope is calibrated...ha ha... 40 feet is easy. That's 8 arm lengths. Bingo!
    I'm just messin with ya. I understand the concept.

  22. #59
    You guys are not solving discos problem. How about if the bagger wins the race the coilers buy disco a rope bag and vis versa?

  23. #60
    He ain't got no skin in the game.

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