Your Advice

[ratagonia]

So, practice using an autoblock too. They do come in handy, but knowing how to adjust friction is much more useful.

And a bottom belay.

Tom

[COJoe]

I definitely understand the point about the autoblock. I figure having one available and using it on longer raps is just going to make us feel more comfortable right now, but an awareness of the dangers of it is also important. It's all about the short length from what I gather and not using it in water (and maybe having a knife in an ankle sheath available).

The rope size is my biggest choice now. I can't remember what we used at ZAC rentals (10mm perhaps?), but I definitely want to try different types and see. I figure I can go for a little larger size for the first rope and decide from there. Probably best to choose a couple routes at first that have shorter raps and take into consideration slickness and fastness (two terms I didn't think about while learning).

Can't deny, shopping for toys is fun stuff!!

[Iceaxe]

Just a quick warning about new ropes.... they are FAST!

The first couple dozen rappels on a new rope are normally really fast until the rope breaks in so dial in a little extra friction the first few rappels.

[ratagonia]

Just a quick warning about new ropes.... they are FAST!

The first couple dozen rappels on a new rope are normally really fast until the rope breaks in so dial in a little extra friction the first few rappels.

Good point Ice.

I have a short article on choosing a diameter here: http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

which may or may not be helpful.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I definitely understand the point about the autoblock. I figure having one available and using it on longer raps is just going to make us feel more comfortable right now, but an awareness of the dangers of it is also important. It's all about the short length from what I gather and not using it in water (and maybe having a knife in an ankle sheath available).

The rope size is my biggest choice now. I can't remember what we used at ZAC rentals (10mm perhaps?), but I definitely want to try different types and see. I figure I can go for a little larger size for the first rope and decide from there. Probably best to choose a couple routes at first that have shorter raps and take into consideration slickness and fastness (two terms I didn't think about while learning).

Can't deny, shopping for toys is fun stuff!!

Your ZAC LOANER was likely either a BlueWater Canyon pro 8.0mm or an Imlay 8.0; or maybe an Imlay 8.3mm Canyon Fire. Well-used.

Tom

[COJoe]

Great info, thanks!

I kind of figured going through a "break-in" period with the rope was necessary. Didn't realize that we were already using an 8mm or so rope, though. That changes things some.

Considering where we'll be playing at first (no water, some sharp rock edges, lots a dirt!), I'm leaning towards the 9.2mm Canyonero, but I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

Regardless, I'll take into consideration the fastness of the rope on our first rappels and set friction accordingly.

[ratagonia]

Great info, thanks!

I kind of figured going through a "break-in" period with the rope was necessary. Didn't realize that we were already using an 8mm or so rope, though. That changes things some.

Considering where we'll be playing at first (no water, some sharp rock edges, lots a dirt!), I'm leaning towards the 9.2mm Canyonero, but I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

Regardless, I'll take into consideration the fastness of the rope on our first rappels and set friction accordingly.

Canyonero is available at Neptune Mountaineering in Boulder.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

In the world of ropes the feel of the rope in called "hand". And this "hand" is the crux of manufacturing and selling ropes, because a good hand in the store doesn't make for a good rope in the field. Ropes have to be broken-in and have a much different hand after they have been used 10 or 20 times.

A lot of manufacturers actually sell inferior ropes to what they are really capable of producing just to get a nice hand in the store, because if they don't have a good hand in the store no one buys their product.

Anyhoo.... the real test you should be looking for is how does the rope feel when it is half way through its life cycle, and how durable is it, not how it feels on the store shelf or first time out.

[COJoe]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).

Now, with Tom's comment about ZAC rentals and looking through my Zion photos, we definitely were using a Canyon Fire rope or something similar in size (ascertained by the fact that the rope was red/yellow and looks identical to CUSA's online photos).

Admittedly, we're not at a level where I would feel comfortable doing any single strand raps right now without some more training. The first few routes we'll do with the new gear will certainly be double-strand raps no bigger than 60'. And that seems to bode well for the skinnier rope. Of course, as I'm sure you all can attest to, those 60'ers will soon enough turn into 100+'ers and I just want to be sure that what I grab now is a rope I can get comfortable with its diameter.

[Eric Holden]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).

For what its worth, I have use my Pirana with 8.5mm single stranded and 10.5mm double stranded and it has always worked great using only the friction adjustments mentioned in the "Manual" for the Pirana. FYI, I am 300lbs.

[ratagonia]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).

Now, with Tom's comment about ZAC rentals and looking through my Zion photos, we definitely were using a Canyon Fire rope or something similar in size (ascertained by the fact that the rope was red/yellow and looks identical to CUSA's online photos).

Admittedly, we're not at a level where I would feel comfortable doing any single strand raps right now without some more training. The first few routes we'll do with the new gear will certainly be double-strand raps no bigger than 60'. And that seems to bode well for the skinnier rope. Of course, as I'm sure you all can attest to, those 60'ers will soon enough turn into 100+'ers and I just want to be sure that what I grab now is a rope I can get comfortable with its diameter.

Big or Small, single or double - it is possible to screw up any version of rappelling. What is more important is knowing what you are doing, specifically, how to rig your rappel device for the rope in front of you.

Opinion: The Pirana is the most flexible rappel device, offering several different and easy to understand friction settings for different situations / ropes / person weights / rappel geometries. It is designed primarily for single line rappels, using european canyoneering ropes. This last: while euro ropes are nominally bigger, they are also softer so they are functionally smaller than their stated diameters. So a Europ 9.6mm ropes probably rappels a lot like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. The Imlay ropes are "hard", so they rappel a little bigger than their diameter (in a sense).

I am 180 lbs (on a good day) and use 8mm and 8.3mm ropes almost entirely, and love using a pirana. Yes, on longish rappels I also add a leg loop biner, then a Z-rig, but in general, a Pirana works great for me. I like my rappel device set up with a lot of friction/a lot of control. If you are 180-200 lbs or more, you might prefer the ATS, which works much the same, but starts out with one level more friction (or two levels more, using the convex side.

So, yeah, where was I...

If you are uncertain, I encourage you to go to the larger diameter Canyonero. If you are uncomfortable with single-strand rappelling - that's OK, but you might want to get comfortable with it. It's mostly a matter of finding the friction setting that works for you with X rope and Y device. (A bottom belay is a great tool for dialing in this setting).

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

Just my two cents here: The cheapest harness I have ever been able to find is the Mammut Mirage. I got mine for like 30 dollars on Amazon a while back. Fits awesome and has held up to abuse pretty well. Otherwise I echo what everyone else has said. I love the Sterling ATS, but it's functionally very similar to the Pirana, outside of the curved shape, and if you're not fat like me you don't really need that extra. Also, the speed of your rope isn't entirely dependent on the thickness, like they've been saying. We have an Eidelweiss canyon rope (don't get it, it kind of sucks) that's 9.5 mm and it's faster than the 8.3 Imlay Canyon ropes I've rappelled on. It's got a really slippery sheath, and I think that's what does it. The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.

[COJoe]

Once again I just want to thank everyone for their awesome advice. Placed my order for a 120' Canyonero, Spry Bag, and Bagarino a few minutes ago and also picked up a helmet, 4 biners, pirana, and gloves. I think that's a pretty good start (and we gotta go try the harness on due to return policies).

Now, I gotta get all my gear !

[ratagonia]

The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.

I realize we are in the prezzy campaign period where "facts" is a fuzzy concept. But on this issue, no need to exaggerate:

Imlay 8.3 Canyon Fire - 57.3 grams per meter = 7.7 lbs / 200 feet.

BW 8.0 Canyon Pro - 42 grams per meter = 8.46 lbs / 300 feet.

I too am a fan of the BW Canyon Pro, but... I don't know what you mean by "awesome friction". When new, the Canyon Pros are very, very fast. Once they are broken in, they are quite good, but still small and fast.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

I too am a fan of the BW Canyon Pro, but... I don't know what you mean by "awesome friction". When new, the Canyon Pros are very, very fast. Once they are broken in, they are quite good, but still small and fast.

Tom

Wasn't bagging on your ropes, Tom, I love them. Also, I've mostly only used the Canyon Pro in waterfalls, which makes a big difference friction-wise, so I guess I don't totally know what I'm talking about in regards to friction. I haven't found the rope to be super fast, though. Using it in my ATS, it's been perfect. And as far as weight is concerned, I can't say I've weighed them, so I bow to your greater knowledge on that, as well.

[mzamp]

It really helps to have all your ropes be the same style, so you learn what friction setting works for you, and don't have to also make an adjustment based on the rope. Obviously, I think you should choose either the Canyon Fire or the Canyonero for that rope, but I also like the Canyon Pro (shhhh, don't tell anyone).

Oops - I have a canyon pro ds 8.0, canyon fire 8.2, and a canyon 9.0

[ratagonia]

And as far as weight is concerned,

When you have questions of fact, or find yourself on the verge of stating something factual, you might find this website useful (I use it all the time):

http://www.google.com



Tom

[spinesnaper]

COJoe

This is great canyoneering advice. To this may I also respectful recommend that no matter how much your wife loves canyoneering, perhaps you should also remember a special dinner and flowers. No matter how a pony-tail-accommodating Petzl helmet says you love her, there is still nothing like flowers and a special dinner to remind her how thoughtful you are. Just saying.

Ken

[ghawk]

The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.

Actually it's the Canyon extreme rope I have Cliff. I checked online and the weight lines up with the pro's though, so Tom's right. It is a very light rope for it's length though. As Far as friction goes, It is a little slicker than other ropes and I like it. I got it for my wedding last year through a friend who had a good deal and other friends who pitched in. Would I ever buy it? probably not, but it's an awesome rope if it's worth it to you. For me, I'll probably keep buying Imlay ropes because they're made of good materials, not the lightest, but much less of a hit on the wallet.

[spinesnaper]

Canyoneering is NOT like climbing with regards to a harness. Doing a typical canyon you probably spend less than 5 minutes a day actually hanging in your harness. Experienced canyoneers probably spend less than 2 minutes actually hanging in their harness.... so comfort isn't a high priority. Light weight, ease of use, expense and quick drying are more important.

I thought this too until the first time I actually had to ascend a rope in a real canyon. After that I came to appreciate the value of a little padding over, pardon the expression, a "butt floss" harness that weights next to nothing. I realized a few extra ounces for the benefit of comfort may be worthwhile.

Ken