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Thread: Your Advice

  1. #1

    Your Advice

    Hi all!

    So, as my first real post on this forum I need your advice...

    My wife's bday is coming up and, due to her newly found love for canyoneering discovered over the summer at Zion and ZAC, I'd like to get her all the start-up gear necessary to roll out to Utah this winter for some fun.

    Now, we're definitely new to this (one training canyon and then Subway) and will be starting slow to build our experience and confidence (i.e., shorter rappels, definitely no single-line raps yet, only day trips, etc.). And I think I've exhausted all links here and on climb-utah and Tom's site, so I'm really looking for your personal recommendations.

    Here's what I'm thinking so far (and I hope you can fill in the gaps):

    -Petzl Piranha (we learned on this and would rather perfect this device before trying others)
    -60m static rope, polyester wrapped/nylon core... is REI okay to buy or is there specialty rope found elsewhere? Also need recommendations on rope size (definitely want safest and lightest, but I get conflicting opinions online)
    -Rope bag
    -Harness - she's 5'4" 110lbs... any recommendations?
    -Carabiners - I realize the attachment from harness to Piranha needs to be considered, any recommendations?
    -Helmet
    -Pack - are Imlay products the best?
    -Etc. (webbing, extra biners, quicklinks, shorter rope for autoblock, gloves)

    Also, this gear will definitely be used for wet canyons next summer.

    Thanks in advance for your expertise and if any of you have any recommendations for some good beginner canyons in Moab, I'd love to hear 'em!

    Joe

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  3. #2
    Hey Joe, good evening and welcome on the forum!
    I followed more or less the same route you described to get into canyoneering. A 1-day course at ZAC, most of my canyons in Zion and as well some outside of Zion. If I have to give some advice from my point of view, I can just tell you what equipment I have and whether I like it:

    • pirana for sure indeed, and I see in the CUSA-store the matching Attache Screwgate HMS Carabiner by Petzel. I also learned it with this device, and for now it is my basic descender.
    • i bought the Imlay canyonfire rope, 200 ft, and as well the large rope silo from Imlay. This silo is a bit large for this rope, however that makes stuffing the rope much more easy. The rope works perfect for me, both double and single stranded; I weigh around 200 lbs. Single may need an extra Z-rig on long descends.
    • for me the Imlay Kolob pack works perfectly for day trips. It is the perfect middle size, it is very very strong, and all features are focussed on canyoneering. It is simply made for canyoneering.
    • harnass and helmet... I'd say go to a store with her and try them on... I think they need that personal 'this-one-fits-me'-feeling.
    • as gloves I use these kind of latex-dipped garden gloves. they come in several brands, I think many canyoneers like the Atlas brand.
    • furthermore just some of the basic stuff, spend as much as affordable. Some proper carabiners, 30 - 1000 foot of webbing (much more would really be useless for now I think), quicklinks, maybe petzl Tibloc for emergencies (learn to use them before you really need them), a Clipster or something like that, etc.


    I haven't been canyoneering outside of Zion a lot because of the safe feeling I have in the Zion canyons. Most of them properly bolted or with existing natural anchors (check them of course), most of them relatively easily reachable, and many are visited daily. If the worst case scenario would happen, I think I'd have best chances in Zion. And of course Zion is terribly beautiful! Perfect place to learn canyoneering.
    So I can't help you about Moab canyons.

    Good luck with it, grtz

  4. #3
    Joe, welcome to Bogley!

    Get her a pair of 5.10 canyoneers. Yes the ugly yellow ones. Their insoles suck, spend the extra bucks and install supportive insoles.

    REI rope works fine, Tom's rope is better. Get her an Imlay Canyon Fire 200 footer and a couple 100 footers. This three rope combo is great for most trips because many canyons don't require a 200 foot rope. If you do need to bring it, you can use your 100 footers for a pull down cord.

    Get her 4 Petzl William biners. They fit the Pirana and they are excellent because they rarely jam up when dirty. If you get some smaller biners, make sure they screwlock. Black Diamond has not perfected the screwlock yet, don't bother with their biners.

    Get an Imlay rope bag for your 200 footer. I put off doing this for waaay too long. After you tangle a long rope a couple of times you will buy a rope bag anyway. Skip the tangles and learn from my mistake. Don't get a rope bag for a 100 foot rope, they don't tangle that easily.

    Get an inexpensive BD harness, Momentum something or other. Spend 50-ish dollars They get beat up quickly, so don't break the bank.

    Get rapid links from CAMP online. They are 3-4 bucks each.

    Petzl helmets are great.

    Don't bother with an autoblock. Instead, become skilled at adjusting friction. Practice rappelling in a safe place, perhaps with a belay, and you will be surprised how quickly you will become annoyed at autoblocks. Oh yeah, that fella died recently on a 15 foot rap due in part to an autoblock.

    Get black, grey or dark green 1 inch webbing. They blend in better. Get her at least 100 feet.

    Seal Line 20 liter drybags are tough, reliable and a practical size to carry stuff. Drybags are much tougher than drysacks. Drysacks don't last long in canyons.

    4-5 Dyneema slings are a must.

    Asics wrestling sleeves (not elbow pads) are great. So are the Mizuno knee pads.

    Waterproof camera, waterproof headlamp, wetsuit, neoprene socks and gloves...

    Bob
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  5. #4
    Thanks guys!

    I pored through the thread about the man who died getting caught in his autoblock (and subsequent strong opinions both for and against its use). I think I'll have to transition that one with some experience as I know I was holding onto it for dear life at first (and then getting annoyed at how hard it was to use when it got wet and sandy!).

    And the shoes... yes, thank you! I recently read some info on the newer 5 10s so I'll definitely get those.

    And looks like I'll be doing most of my shopping online. I might grab one of the 100' ropes from REI as I have a 20% coupon burning a hole in my pocket, though.

    And I guess regarding the rope, I'll be descending on it as well (6'1" 190lbs), so will 8-9mm suffice?

  6. #5
    Hi,
    I'm also new to canyoneering, but have a few things to offer from my research and lessons learned with buying my own new gear recently.


    • Go with 70m of rope (edit: See slot_machines recommendation for rope length). You won't be disappointed with the extra 10m and it's only a few bucks extra. As for size, I have both a 9.2 and an 8.3. I honestly cannot tell the difference. Get your rope from Tom or ZAC. I have 40' of 8mm from REI as a static line for top roping (PMI brand); I'd rap off of it, but it just doesn't have the same 'feel' as the other two. Below 70m, I think a rope bag is a luxury (you should have good rope management skills without the bag anyway).
    • For biners, make sure they're screw gate. I personally like the big BD Rocklock to block the clove hitch (it's massive at 4") and the Petzl Attache for my belay loop (slightly smaller at 3").
    • Petzl offers a women's helmet that fits pony tails. My wife loves it. (http://www.rei.com/product/830890/pe...-helmet-womens)
    • For a pack, I modded my old Gregory hiking pack with some grommets and cut all the straps super short. It works great, but I can see it's going to take a beating. That being said, I used an Imlay this past weekend and it was way awesome. If you have the means, I'd get one for sure.
    • Definitely pick up some extra webbing, extra biners, and a few quicklinks.
    • To echo Maarten, get some sort of ascender (and also a set of prussics) and make sure you know how to use them.


    Hope that helps!
    Jeremy

  7. #6
    All my opinions...

    The Petzl William Triact is the best biner on the planet for canyoneering.... it's now the only biner I use and I have NEVER had one jam (I can't say that about any other biner) and I've been using them for over 10 years. The biner is lightening fast to open and close, and can be operated with one hand. They cost a couple bucks more then other biners. I have no clue if they work on a Pirana.

    Petzl William Triact
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    For a harness the only thing I use any more is the BD Apline BOD. This is one of the few harnesses you can put on without sitting down. Which is nice the first time you have to put on a harness while standing in 2 feet of mud.

    BD Apline BOD
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    I use Tom's rope, packs and rope bags most of the time.... good products/good value per dollar spent.

    My girls all wear the Petzl helmet mentioned above that works with a pony tail. It's the only way to fly if your woman has long hair. Tom sales them last time I checked.

    Ropes - outside of Zion a 100' rope will probably become your most used rope. So the suggestion of (1) 200' and (2) 100' is a great start. On rappels up to 100' we carry (2) 100' ropes over a single 200' rope as it allows you to split up the load and the shorter ropes are easier to work through the short drops


  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1701 View Post

    • Go with 70m of rope (edit: See slot_machines recommendation for rope length). You won't be disappointed with the extra 10m and it's only a few bucks extra. As for size, I have both a 9.2 and an 8.3. I honestly cannot tell the difference. Get your rope from Tom or ZAC. I have 40' of 8mm from REI as a static line for top roping (PMI brand); I'd rap off of it, but it just doesn't have the same 'feel' as the other two. Below 70m, I think a rope bag is a luxury (you should have good rope management skills without the bag anyway).
    There is a big difference; weight. 8.3mm is noticeably lighter.

    200 feet, 230 feet, not a big difference. I can't think of a canyon where I wish I had that extra 30 feet. YMMV.

    I also have an 8mm PMI rope that I've had for years, it soaks up some water but it is quite durable. I agree that it does have a nice feel. Not a terrible way to spend a 20% a coupon. Personally I would use the coupon on a helmet or harness and skip the REI ropes.

    40' for top-roping? Static? Isn't a 20 foot wall still considered bouldering?
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    I can't think of a canyon where I wish I had that extra 30 feet. YMMV.
    x2

    FWIW: I write all my beta to work with 200', 120', 100' and 60' ropes, because those are pretty standard lengths. I know most beta sprayers also write to those lengths. When I establish new routes or improve older routes, I work really hard to make sure the rappels fall into those perameters, I know others do also.

    Anything over 200' means get out the 300' rope.... which to me mostly means Heaps.

    YMMV

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    40' for top-roping? Static? Isn't a 20 foot wall still considered bouldering?
    Good point! The 40'er is for building the top rope anchor. We use a dynamic rope for the actual climbing.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by COJoe View Post
    Thanks guys!

    I pored through the thread about the man who died getting caught in his autoblock (and subsequent strong opinions both for and against its use). I think I'll have to transition that one with some experience as I know I was holding onto it for dear life at first (and then getting annoyed at how hard it was to use when it got wet and sandy!).

    And the shoes... yes, thank you! I recently read some info on the newer 5 10s so I'll definitely get those.

    And looks like I'll be doing most of my shopping online. I might grab one of the 100' ropes from REI as I have a 20% coupon burning a hole in my pocket, though.

    And I guess regarding the rope, I'll be descending on it as well (6'1" 190lbs), so will 8-9mm suffice?
    The "dear life" grip will go away if you get out and practice for a couple of days and hone in your friction preference. Get an ATC and try it with two biners, or just one. Not saying it is better than a Pirana for you, it is just different. Try different ropes. Get 30-40 good rappels in and you will learn a lot about what friction setup you prefer. FWIW, we go to a climbing crag and practice with a fireman belay.

    Also, I'm about your size and really like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. I also have an Imlay 8mm that is kind of fast and scary, but it's new and still slick. I don't like ropes bigger than 9mm; just personal preference.
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  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1701 View Post
    Good point! The 40'er is for building the top rope anchor. We use a dynamic rope for the actual climbing.
    Ah! Now that makes sense!
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  13. #12
    Awesome recs!! Can't thank you all enough!

    So, it seems like the rope is the big start up expense. Well, that and the pack. And both seem like a good place to spend the extra dough. I think I'll be giving Tom a shout to order some ropes and packs.

    The harness is interesting because I see plenty out there for over $100. Not the way to go, huh? Good, I'd rather put that money into other things like shoes and better ropes. The helmet is a must as she definitely has long hair.

    I suppose one other thing to consider is a local refresher course. I'm pretty comfortable with knot tying and all that, but using an ascender is something I've never done and I trust you guys that learning when needed is not a good idea!

  14. #13
    Last edited by peakbaggers; 10-11-2012 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Misread message

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by peakbaggers View Post
    Reality check: If I'm reading this right, she's gonna have a baby and 3 months later heading out to do canyons?? Don't think that's gonna happen! You won't be able to wean her from the baby that quick or find somebody to watch a 3 month old for an entire day while you go out and have fun. My son and his wife had a baby at end of March and are just now, maybe, going to get their first chance to get out for an entire day and actually do a short canyon. Don't intend to rain on your parade, but thought you need to be better mentally prepared for what's coming your way.
    "bday" is coming up not "baby" coming up.

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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Get her 4 Petzl William biners. They fit the Pirana and they are excellent because they rarely jam up when dirty. If you get some smaller biners, make sure they screwlock. Black Diamond has not perfected the screwlock yet, don't bother with their biners.
    A pirana was really designed to be used with a Petzl carabiner, specifically "for use with a locking carabiner having a 12 mm cross-section (ATTACHE or WILLIAM)" (from the Petzl website).

    I prefer my other locking carabiners to be Black Diamond. IMHO, with maybe a long discontinued exception, they've had screw gates dialed for some time. Their newer light weight rigs are super.

    FWIW.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    A pirana was really designed to be used with a Petzl carabiner, specifically "for use with a locking carabiner having a 12 mm cross-section (ATTACHE or WILLIAM)" (from the Petzl website).

    I prefer my other locking carabiners to be Black Diamond. IMHO, with maybe a long discontinued exception, they've had screw gates dialed for some time. Their newer light weight rigs are super.

    FWIW.
    Maybe I didn't describe my issue with BD binders clearly enough, they jam badly when sand gets into the screwgate. When they are clean they work fine. My William biners rarely jam when they are sandy, and the bearings in the screwgate are ultra smooth when they are clean. The cross-cut grip on the William screwgate is better as well, it's still grippy when wet. I have 3 or 4 types of BD screwgates and they all perform poorly in sandy canyon conditions.
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  19. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by COJoe View Post
    The harness is interesting because I see plenty out there for over $100.
    Canyoneering is NOT like climbing with regards to a harness. Doing a typical canyon you probably spend less than 5 minutes a day actually hanging in your harness. Experienced canyoneers probably spend less than 2 minutes actually hanging in their harness.... so comfort isn't a high priority. Light weight, ease of use, expense and quick drying are more important.

    Canyoneering is also great at destroying equipment. It's not uncommon for someone doing a moderate number of canyons each year to destroy a harness every year (somewhat dependant on where and what canyons you are descending).



  20. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Maybe I didn't describe my issue with BD binders clearly enough, they jam badly when sand gets into the screwgate. When they are clean they work fine. My William biners rarely jam when they are sandy, and the bearings in the screwgate are ultra smooth when they are clean. The cross-cut grip on the William screwgate is better as well, it's still grippy when wet. I have 3 or 4 types of BD screwgates and they all perform poorly in sandy canyon conditions.
    Yeah, I guess I'd agree a bit with that, given the sand deal. I need to get some red dirt on my biners!

    My fav's have been an old Wild Country with a large barrel and the old plastic twistlock DMMs with soom became 1/4 turn manuals.

    Beat a Petzl Attache with a rock this summer to get it to unlock. Crazy stuck closed. Not a sand issue (clear water, granite canyon).

    Have to say, even though I kinda destroyed my BD Momentum harness butt sliding in canyons, I like it. Comfy, and, for 50 bucks, hard to beat the price given the fit and features. Remains to be seen how the little plastic slider dealios work by the leg loops when under rough duress.

    Bod harness, de-tuned by cutting the fleece off. You get the fatter leg straps in the back, more durable, belay loop. Great deal and, like Shane, I like how it goes on easy without having to step through leg loops (some of us are clutzy). For hiking long distance, I really like the fit as it doesn't bind over the top of my thighs.

    If I were using a Pirana as my primary rappel device, or, was supporting my better half who was, I'd bump the rope diameter up to 9mm at a minimum. Single strand, wet or dry, that'd be a better choice IMHO than a skinny, slick rope that will surprise you on a free 60m rappel by having a surprising lack of friction. Also, fatter ropes are more tolerant to rock damage. And, in higher flow, you'll want to rig for wide open rappelling and fatter is nicer for that too. Those spendy Sterlings are nice cords...

    I still am not a fan of the 5.10 canyoneers, but, they don't have much competition. I'd much prefer a nice approach shoe with some drainage than the poor fit and lack of durability (hate the buckles, too). Bulky.

    Nothing nicer than a Imlay pack as a sweet piece of gear. Carry great. Drain like a dream. Price is nice.

    Cheers!

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  22. #19
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    The "dear life" grip will go away if you get out and practice for a couple of days and hone in your friction preference. Get an ATC and try it with two biners, or just one. Not saying it is better than a Pirana for you, it is just different. Try different ropes. Get 30-40 good rappels in and you will learn a lot about what friction setup you prefer. FWIW, we go to a climbing crag and practice with a fireman belay.

    Also, I'm about your size and really like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. I also have an Imlay 8mm that is kind of fast and scary, but it's new and still slick. I don't like ropes bigger than 9mm; just personal preference.
    I use an autobloc ALL the time, when guiding. Otherwise, never. When you switch to going naked (ie, without the autobloc), set the pirana one setting higher friction. For a start. You might want to carry an Autobloc (VT Prusik) for special circumstances, but rapping 12 feet in a waterfall in the Subway is not one of those circumstances.

    It really helps to have all your ropes be the same style, so you learn what friction setting works for you, and don't have to also make an adjustment based on the rope. Obviously, I think you should choose either the Canyon Fire or the Canyonero for that rope, but I also like the Canyon Pro (shhhh, don't tell anyone).

    I think a ropebag is MORE important for the smaller rope (120' now is standard, at least from me), since that is the rope you use the most. Bagarino's rule! - and they last a long time so overall are a good value. I'm sorry they are somewhat expensive, but I design them FIRST for functioning really well and the cost is what the cost comes out to.

    You may have noticed that male and female brains tend to put emphasis on different things. Your wife might prefer, among all these possibilities, a one day course for the two of you. Even if you took a ZAC one-day course, now that you have some context, the specific technical material will make a lot more sense, and you will be able to learn much faster/deeper.

    Of course, a new wetsuit also goes over pretty well.

    Tom

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I use an autobloc ALL the time, when guiding. Otherwise, never. When you switch to going naked (ie, without the autobloc), set the pirana one setting higher friction. For a start. You might want to carry an Autobloc (VT Prusik) for special circumstances, but rapping 12 feet in a waterfall in the Subway is not one of those circumstances.
    Well, I'm not an expert. Tom is. Take his words more seriously than mine.

    I'll amend what I said with one more thought; autoblocks come in handy once in a while and it is good to practice using one.

    One time we were faced with a 160 foot free-hanging rappel when a freak snowstorm hit. The rope quickly became icy and my hands were frozen. Losing control was at the front of my mind. That was a good situation to have a trustworthy autoblock (i.e. cut the right length) that I've practiced with several times. I went first and "tested" it on the way down by letting the autoblock grab the rope as if I were to let go. It would have held and I'm glad I had it that day.

    So, practice using an autoblock too. I was wrong by implying to never use one at all. They do come in handy, but knowing how to adjust friction is much more useful.
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