Aquanchor- it being used, how it works and how it was built.

[Moose Droppings]

Maybe I've been here too long.... but I didn't see anything as being unusually vicious...

The subject of how does the Aquanchor effect the micro environments of potholes was raised and that is a legitimate concern. This subject is something a board member of 'American Canyoneer' should be highly tuned to, because the subject is on the radar of both the BLM and National Park Service and is likely to have an effect on future canyoneering access.

The subject of taking something as simple as rappelling and making it uber dangerous was raised. And that again is a legitimate concern and has been a pet-peeve of Brian in SLC (among others) for a long time.

The subject of packing along yet more gear was raised, which again is a legitimate concern. This packing a special tool for every rare encounter possible goes against the principle of "lighter is righter" that many of us hold dear to our heart. Many of us tackle projects in small two man teams and not the giant siege machine capable of packing so much specialized equipment.

When subjects like the Aquanchor are shown on Bogley they are typically critiqued and constructive critisisum (along with snarky remarks) offered. Criticism can be taken as hurtful and demoralizing, it can also be viewed in a positive way: it is honesty, and it can spur us to do better. It’s an opportunity to improve.

+1

[Brian in SLC]

Unusually vicious stuff in here...even for the bog.

Brian, if your words mean little or nothing ("...it's the interweb") then why write them?

Yeah, came off kinda harsh, eh? I didn't say they meant little or nothing. There's some issues to debate, for sure. I tried to adjust the tone with the "hee hee hee" bit at the end but some folks will read some type of malice into it, rather than the spirit in which is was intended, which, was light hearted.

If you got your feelings hurt, then, I'm sorry.

Was kinda pointy, eh? And, I left the douchbag reference wide open as it could certainly apply to me.

I certainly appreciate folks that are developing techniques and gettin' out and having fun. But, there is an air of elitism to it. I hear it at the parties, around the campfire, and, when I get a whiff of it on the internet, I does raise the fur on the back of my neck a bit.

Can't help but thinking all this sketchy anchor BS you guys do is going to get someone killed. Everyone wants to follow the cool kids over the cliff. Ya'll are Pied Pipers. Sometimes I think you toss this stuff out there fairly casually. And, seems like most all of you have been hurt in recent years too, from blown down climbs, anchors failing, etc. Only a matter of time that someone gets killed.

This sketchy anchoring business is pushing a pretty dangerous agenda out there to the masses. All to avoid placing a fixed anchor?

There has to be balance.

[canyondevil]

Thanks for sharing the Aguanchor, Ram and Jenny. Some of us really enjoy looking for new ideas and different ways of solving problems. To me, these tools are one of the things that makes things exciting. And they give me something to play with at home between trips.

[hank moon]

Maybe I've been here too long.... but I didn't see anything as being unusually vicious...

This: "Right now its just a bunch of old has-beens amusing themselves with a silly and dangerous game and trying to impress upon the rest of us poor schmoes that it actually means something."

Doesn't fit the model of criticism that would usually be "viewed in a positive way" Gratuitous violence doesn't encourage good conversation. Nasty words followed by an attempt to nullify/temper it with "hee hee" doesn't tend to further the legitimate points raised in the convo - it tends to derail it. The post would have been better without that part.

[Iceaxe]

Gotcha Hank... as I said, I've been around here along time and have a tendency to skim past the snarky remarks and get to the point of a post, which were valid arguments....

FWIW: I enjoyed viewing the Aquanchor and it's use.... there is not a chance in hell I'd ever use one because I'd prefer to use the space in my pack for more versatile tools. That and it appears a little too sketchy/bulky/specialized for my taste.... but I enjoyed viewing what others are doing....

[Brian in SLC]

This: "Right now its just a bunch of old has-beens amusing themselves with a silly and dangerous game and trying to impress upon the rest of us poor schmoes that it actually means something."

doesn't fit the model of criticism that would usually be "viewed in a positive way" Gratuitous violence doesn't encourage good conversation.

Neither does overstating with "gratuitous violence". That's just silly.

Maybe the truth hurts, eh? But emotionally...worth some introspection for sure.

Was laughing when I posted it. Still gettin' a chuckle out of it, but, yeah, words can be hurtful especially if it smacks of some measure of honesty...

Didn't mean to stifle the debate either. Certainly didn't want the kids in the sandbox to pack up their toys and go home.

Just thinkin' about this stuff, though, and I had an interesting thought. These new techniques, new exploration, fixed anchors, the sharing of beta...all leads to environmental concerns for the land we're lovin' to death. Is the desert too fragile for mainstream canyoneering by the masses, unwashed or not? I hope not.

Cheers, and, geez, ligthen up, for reals, yo. Group hug! Ha ha...

[hank moon]

Neither does overstating with "gratuitous violence". That's just silly.

"Maybe the truth hurts, eh? But emotionally...worth some introspection for sure."

[deagol]

. Is the desert too fragile for mainstream canyoneering by the masses...

this ^^^

IMO: the answer is yes

[Slot Machine]

Some of the aggressive spotting (just me bragging again) and captures (Yes with fun names;-)) is pretty remarkable. When you get folks like Pascal under some of the kids or a pro like Jenny, going last. Just amazing. Seems rappels start at 18 feet and up these days, when you get that talent together. Add the fancy toys that you dis, the toys invented to solve specific problems encountered in the field...well all the more fun. If I come with the intent to share something really creative and fun (and edgy) and am dismissed as an old ego driven coot trying to....what did you say?... impress the schmoes? Is that all you see? Such a high opinion you have of me! Thanks. Gotta go. I will be much more careful about sharing anything in the future, least I be seen as condescending. My sincere apology to those I may have insulted.
Logging off
Ram

Mr Ram,

Thanks for stopping by and sharing. I'm stoked that you find great joy in testing new techniques and innovative equipment.

I found your water anchor and the ensuing discussion very interesting and educational! As far as I can tell, nobody is certain that the Aquanchor is a safe or even a sensible anchor, hence the lively and worthwhile discussion.

However, I feel that you are departing from the Bog in haste. You are on the cutting edge of canyoneering innovation; of course that is going to bring a slew of criticism. Did you honestly expect otherwise?

What I'm saying is, Ram, please stick around and discuss; we are all learning from your vast amount of experience.

Respectfully,
Bob

[dude9478]

Brian, I don't know you, but I have to wonder...If you are trying to get a point across, why the name calling? I understand this is the interwebs, but is it really necessary? For me at least, it detracts from the point you are trying to make. Nothing wrong with being cordial to others, and you can still critique without being overly sarcastic.

Ram and Jenny, thank you for posting this. It is a very interesting piece of equipment you have developed. I will be watching to see what developments/improvements you come up with in the future(probably on the yahoo groups...)

Best,
Kevin

[moabmatt]

The subject of how does the Aquanchor effect the micro environments of potholes was raised and that is a legitimate concern. This subject is something a board member of 'American Canyoneer' should be highly tuned to, because the subject is on the radar of both the BLM and National Park Service and is likely to have an effect on future canyoneering access.

The canyons of Glen Canyon NRA have been under a fixed-anchor ban since 2000, so bolts aren't allowed. The watertrap may not be a perfect solution in everyone's eyes, but I see this as a very creative way to abide by current regulations. Necessity is the mother of inventions, after all. I'm pretty excited about all this creativity and I suspect it won't stop here. This invention will likely lead to another that may eliminate or mitigate some of the concerns expressed.

Years ago I was involved in some discussion with the NPS and USGS about potholes in some of the Arches canyons. The distinction was made between "potholes" and "plunge pools," whereby plunge pools are located in drainages that get flooded periodically and potholes are isolated and independent of drainages. The ecology can be very similar in both, containing fairy shrimp and the like, though plunge pools are often less sensitive due to the periodic floods that rip through and upset the ecology. Regardless, I can tell you that the impacts caused by a watertrap anchor to a plunge pool or pothole are extremely trivial compared to the impact of a person entering, exiting and simply being in the plunge pool or pothole (body oils affecting pH balances, splashing and water displacement harming emerging dragonfly nymphs on the wall immediately above waterline, feet trampling eggs and increasing turbidity, etc.). Bolts, generally speaking, won't avoid these more salient impacts because folks will still need to enter the water to traverse over to the bolts. (I suppose bolts could limit human activity in the water if used for guided rappel/tyrolean anchors, though with the current ban on fixed anchors this is not allowable right now anyway).

And Brian, I wouldn't call someone who is out there a hundred plus days a year inventing and testing new devices and techniques that revolutionize an activity we love a "has been." He sounds like far more of a "hardman" than you! Besides, didn't your mama teach you to respect your elders?

[Scott P]

and testing new devices and techniques that revolutionize an activity we love

It's very cool. but I don't think it's new though. It's similar to the method Steve Allen used decades ago. He used dromedary water sacks to make the first descents (LNT) of canyons like Segars Hole/Squeeze and Quandary direct in the early 1980's. Seeing photos of it is nice.

Pretty cool though, Ram. Hope to do some canyons with you again sometime (soon).

[Iceaxe]

Years ago I was involved in some discussion with the NPS and USGS about potholes in some of the Arches canyons. The distinction was made between "potholes" and "plunge pools," whereby plunge pools are located in drainages that get flooded periodically and potholes are isolated and independent of drainages.

Matt, thanks for the info.

All I was told is how to manage potholes was under discussion in Arches NP and it could effect some canyoneering routes.

[deagol]

....the impacts caused by a watertrap anchor to a plunge pool or pothole are extremely trivial compared to the impact of a person entering, exiting and simply being in the plunge pool or pothole (body oils affecting pH balances, splashing and water displacement harming emerging dragonfly nymphs on the wall immediately above waterline, feet trampling eggs and increasing turbidity, etc.). ....

This made me think of the potholes on the slickrock areas around Moab that people drive their jeeps into(including and especially the Slickrock Trail), leaving motor oil in the pothole, burned rubber, and chipping the rock surface due to tires spinning and bumpers impacting the rock.

[The Good Cop]

For what it's worth, I had the pleasure of using An "Aquanchor" (we didn't have that clever name then) for the first time this spring. Under the oversight of one who regularly characterizes himself as the least techno-gizmo-capable of the folks I know of who worked on it (Ramoo), the rest of us who had not used it before were able to use it safely & with confidence, including substantial drops that transitioned to free-hanging part way down. It was just darned cool to use it, along with the sandtrap & fiddlestick, to do many drops while leaving nothing behind. We had a range of sizes/weights of folks, and a good-sized group to repeatedly test the anchors while it was backed up in order to gain a high degree of confidence in its security (6 people). And we used techniques appropriate to the available terrain, geometry, etc.

I would be far more cautious attempting to employ these techniques if I were not in the company of folks with the experience & judgement gained through repeated applications of the techniques. Nevertheless, I can foresee with some confidence the future potential for using these techniques - though not likely before I get more time with good mentors. I am patient!

In any case, I encourage great caution with these techniques & there seems to me no better technique than learning from experienced folks (there's a case for a different version of 'show-don't tell' ). But I also believe that they can be used very safely. Judgement! It requires being focused & avoiding mental errors; in my opinion an approach that is hopefully in many canyoneers 'sweet spot'.

Cheers & safe ventures to all,

Wayne

[Bo_Beck]

Maybe the device could also be used for a colonic?

Always get a chuckle out of the definitions on this site:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=douchebag

Lighten up, man, its the interweb.

Wow! Never would have thought?!

[RAM]

Thanks Kevin. The credit belongs to Jenny. As you predicted, the discussion continued on Canyons group. Many or most followed it over there, but I will provide some information and video, in two posts, along with some links.

Reiterating that this is not an attempt to sell this anchor idea to anyone. They are not for sale anywhere anyway. It is simply an attempt show some forming ideas and encourage innovative thought and discovery in others. Seeds tossed.

Here is a few copied and pasted segment from Canyons group

"We normally carry both the sandtrap and the aguanchor in one potshot. Fits
inside quite nicely and packs small. For kicks, I added the fiddlestick and the edge protector to the package
and weighed it. Including the rapides attached to the anchors that make it
"ready for use," it came in at about 3 lb 6 ozs. for everything including the
potshot.

I grabbed other gear to see what weighs about the same. A 110 foot, 9mm rope
WITHOUT the rope bag is comparable. And the anchor package packs smaller
than the rope. It is hardly the cumbersome package some skeptics have speculated it
to be. It is true that those who have never seen it and don't know how to use it, won't need it. Those that see it and use it, especially the sandtrap (more exposures to the public) tend to fall in love with it."


Another...


"There were a major rainstorm in both the middle of September and one in the
middle of October this fall. The aguanchor got most of it use after these
storms, when so many anchor options were under water. This is a valid niche for
the tool. I am less nervous about canyoneering after storms now."


another...

a short tale. On a canyon out on the Glen, that we made a first modern
descent on, the next to last rap, is a 25 foot overhanging Drop. We
fiddlesticked a log the first time. The 2nd time we went, the log had been
washed away, but a sandtrap had perfect geometry. The 3rd time we visited the
place was after the October storm and this spot was 3 feet deep in water. You
know what we did.

The same spot, three different trips, three different solutions, due to changing
conditions. These systems have been called clunky and heavy handed. Yet nothing
was left. No rocks were farmed, stacked or buried. The sand and water used
stayed pretty much where is was gotten, at the top of the anchor. Pretty nifty
if you ask me.

[RAM]

Disclaimer....

During the making of this video, no rocks were moved or buried. No potholes were entered (just a plunge pool). No children were killed. No murder of the impossible was committed. No "has been's" were spied trying to compensate for their inadequacies. No schmoes were looked down upon, although Brian is free to volunteer again in either role.


The is bonus footage, not included in the coming documentary, Gorging.
I understand several more treats such as this extra footage, are coming your way
soon, along with information about the coming film. looking forward to it.

Here is where the video part of the thread begins, with many replies to the post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/66644
RAM

Wanna see something pretty cool?

This was the very first test and use of the Aguanchor (May 2011) and the only
footage of how it looks when it empties. Several important improvements have
been made to the device since then.

1- The yellow plastic cord, which takes the PVC sealing device, is now sewn
into the fabric, making for a more secure fastening

2-Webbing has been added to the pull side, in a "Y" shape with an end attaching to
the opposite corner of where the water spills out. That piece is
slightly longer than the side that is attached to the PVC pipe end. The result is the pipe pulls off, the water starts to empty and THEN a second later the back side of the trap pulls up in the air, emptying the water more effectively so that the trap is almost always empty of water before
coming over the drop.

3-You will note some brown leather cloth as part of the system. It has a hole on
each side of it and the rope fits through. It is used for lightweight groove
protection. A small piece of garden hose, with some 8mm rope through it is also
a tool we use for this. It should be noted, as is obvious from the video, the
Aguanchor is very low friction when being pulled. One must be much more vigilant
about friction with the sandtrap. Both these tool accomplish that

[Deathcricket]

Nice seeing it in action! Very slick/awesome interface/design and it's scary how fast the water drained from it, like 1.5 seconds. I would encourage you guys need to patent this immediately and make some cash off it. Nothing wrong with that.

I still personally would never feel secure using one though, haha. Maybe if I saw it in person and was more experienced with setting up sketchy anchors..... Naw I still doubt it. But it's very very cool and innovative, thanks for sharing.


Edit: If you don't mind sharing... How did you guys arrive at AGuanchor and not AGua-Anchor, AQua-anchor or such? Is there some cool story or joke behind the name creation?

[ghawk]

Awesome, glad to see it's working well