Descender market.

[Bootboy]

I've talked to a local machine shop about making a custom, purpose built canyoneering descender of my own design out of stainless steel. It would be financially beneficial for both me and the shop if I had a lot of several hundred made. But before I front the cash I wanted to know what the market would be like. Is a stainless descender something people would be interested in? The design is most similar to the rock exotica mini 8. Similar but a little more conducive to the canyon environment. I'd like to be able to offer it at a price point to be competitive for a device that will last more than twice as long as something half the price.

Let me know what y'all think.

[Slot Machine]

Can we see a picture of your design?

[Bootboy]

Ill have to upload one. Gimme a minute.

[Bootboy]

This was one of my early renderings. I've since put it into the computer and refined it, ready for the mill. Im not going to show my final design but you get the idea. Give me some feedback. If people would be interested, I can pull the trigger on an initial R&D run. Prototypes will cost me a little more but if its worth it in the end I can have a few made. I'll even consider aluminum for R&D as it would keep my initial costs lower. Let me know what you guys think.

[Brian in SLC]

That looks kinda cool!

Less friction from steel than aluminum? Seem to recall that...

One thing I really like about the ATS is that I can use it either hand. The horns are on both sides. Ambi. If I see some wear, can also flip it over. Its big is my only real complaint.

Double horns! Ha ha...

[ilipichicuma]

I think it looks cool, and if we're talking half the price I'd be all over it! Would you be using this more pirana/ATS style or more figure 8 style? I'm not a huge fan of 8s personally, but I do really like the horns there to add friction or lock off.

[agostinone]

If you are looking for a place to knock out some prototypes I've got a shop I use that has a great web interface. You just upload your CAD model and the thing gives you instant pricing. You can diddle the quantity and watch the price change. They usually turn around my stuff in a couple of days--and thats for complex organic shaped parts.

Send me PM if you need details (or help creating 3d CAD--no charge, I'd do it just for fun and I'm trustworthy--I'll protect your IP).

[deagol]

what about using a design that's already out there and proven (yet made of different material)? would that be some sort of trademark violation??

[Deathcricket]

Yes

[2065toyota]

what about using a design that's already out there and proven (yet made of different material)? would that be some sort of trademark violation??

Not necessarily. If it can be shown there is a functional difference because of the materials

[hank moon]

what about using a design that's already out there and proven (yet made of different material)? would that be some sort of trademark violation??

What you are thinking of is a patent violation. If a copy is made of a patented device, there could be a problem, but only if the patent holder takes legal action. The question of materials is moot: most patents of this kind of equipment do not specify materials used, so if the copy looks identical to the patented device and is made of a different material, that would probably be a patent violation if the device is put on the market. Of course, individuals may make copies of anything for their own use...

[2065toyota]

If the changing of materials creates a tangible improvement to a patented item then there is no infringement upon the original patent. If it is a questionable item then you better have the engineering done it or it may be an issue

[ratagonia]

If the changing of materials creates a tangible improvement to a patented item then there is no infringement upon the original patent. If it is a questionable item then you better have the engineering done it or it may be an issue

Patents make "claims". You have to look at each specific patent to know what the claims are, but usually, the claims are not about the material. They are about the design, independent of material.

A good patent writer makes the claims as broad as possible.

There is also a presumptive design patent. If you make something that looks an awful lot like a Pirana, then the consumer would be confused by your release. That is dirty pool - hard to say if Petzl would think it worth taking you to court on it.

Best idea is to download the patents and read them. And if you 'copy' a design, at least change it so it looks different.

I think you may be shocked how small the market is for canyoneering descenders. I think I am a big seller of Piranas, and I sold 46 last year.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Patents make "claims". You have to look at each specific patent to know what the claims are, but usually, the claims are not about the material. They are about the design, independent of material.

A good patent writer makes the claims as broad as possible.

There is also a presumptive design patent. If you make something that looks an awful lot like a Pirana, then the consumer would be confused by your release. That is dirty pool - hard to say if Petzl would think it worth taking you to court on it.

Best idea is to download the patents and read them. And if you 'copy' a design, at least change it so it looks different.

I think you may be shocked how small the market is for canyoneering descenders. I think I am a big seller of Piranas, and I sold 46 last year.

Tom

Only 46? Woof. Sorry guys but this may just be a one off deal. I'll just pay the cash to have a single made for my own personal consumption...

[deagol]

Thanks for the answers. I don't have the means to do what I asked about, FWIW. Also, I wouldn't want to infringe on a patent. I guess I am just wishing that the aluminum would hold up better for my device and wonder of steel is the answer.