Info? Want some new projects?

[yetigonecrazy]

Too much Google Earth'n lately. Has anyone any info on any of these? If not.....feel free to add them to your project list! If you do....just be a nice community member and drop us a picture or two.

Also....if you have any you want to add, feel free to add em and re-post

[Slot Machine]

Too much Google Earth'n lately.

There is no such thing as too much.

Canyon 7333 looks like a dud. It is probably a nice hike, but the total elevation loss is pretty tame for such a long canyon, only 300 feet; it's likely not a great canyoneering adventure. Burro Wash has about 1000 foot loss in comparison. I'd bet many people have done this hike since it is along The Reef.

On Bing maps 6880 and 7614 look like duds.

Holey Moley looks fun. It might be even better if you approach from the long slot/crack to the east.

Marker #4 looks cool, but it is not even 300 feet long. That would be a long drive/hike to get to that tiny canyon!

Now, marker #5 looks good! 1200 feet long, 300 feet elevation change. There is even a Jeep trail near the top of the canyon. Lets go!

[yetigonecrazy]

There is no such thing as too much.

Canyon 7333 looks like a dud. It is probably a nice hike, but the total elevation loss is pretty tame for such a long canyon, only 300 feet; it's likely not a great canyoneering adventure. Burro Wash has about 1000 foot loss in comparison. I'd bet many people have done this hike since it is along The Reef.

On Bing maps 6880 and 7614 look like duds.

Holey Moley looks fun. It might be even better if you approach from the long slot/crack to the east.

Marker #4 looks cool, but it is not even 300 feet long. That would be a long drive/hike to get to that tiny canyon!

Now, marker #5 looks good! 1200 feet long, 300 feet elevation change. There is even a Jeep trail near the top of the canyon. Lets go!

Thanks for the reply!

1 & 2 (Pt 6880 & 7614) both caught my eye oecause of obvious narrows. I agree that they dont look that good for technical canyoneering, but maybe a multi-day backpack trip might be fun to go get in them both at least hiking...

Holey Moley looks really good. Access from the very top of the canyon would be a serious undertaking but any way you could get in would probably work out....It sits in a crack between multiple domes so I feel like this could hold some nice problems perhaps......not to mention the final rap looks fun. A note about this, we asked a ranger what this canyon was called, she didn't think it had an official name, they just called it "Holey Moley" because of the holes in the rocks. So, FWIW.

4 Is short, but if you were already in the area checking out #5 then why miss and op for another one?

7333......I see what you mean about the elevation loss. It looks like (both on maps and google earth) that there is two sets of possible narrows, one further east in the Navajo, and the one at the head of the canyon in the Wingate. My guess is the section in the Navajo is flattish and uninteresting, but I think the upper head of this may be worth looking at. If it was to lose that 300 feet in a half mile or so.... :D

#8/Saddle Arch......I know this one is holding, because I've been up these narrows for couple hundred yards until we had to turn around. I don't know what it would be like getting to the top of the massif that this is in but I think this canyon could be a real short gem.

9 is just a random peg, the trailhead is just minutes off UT 24, near Sunglow CG. Yeah, not a destination, but passing through the area, or in the area and need a minute or two to kill......why not?


Saddle Arch Narrows. You climb and pass under the boulders really easily

In Saddle Arch narrows, just past the chokestones. I stemmed and wriggled my way up another 50 yards or so beyond this before turning around

Bottom rap on Holey Moley

Looking up at final narrows in Holey Moley

Thanks again for you reply. Glad someone on here is still interested in sharing info!

[outsider]

Have you considered that perhaps other canyoneers have descended these slots in the past, and left them for others such as yourselves to explore and enjoy? I'm not suggesting that is the way to deal with all "new" canyons, or even these, but just throwing it out there to think about. Nor do I have any expectations of changing opinions or philosophies. I do find it interesting that most very experienced canyoneers, with the partial exception of those that profit from information, seem to believe there is some "line" beyond where canyons should remain under the radar, mysterious, or if you prefer, the dreaded term "secret". Anyhow, have a good time out there.
-john

[2065toyota]

The line that draws between under and over the radar is a personal choice not dictated whether you are old or new to the sport. To each their own on the decision and it shouldn't be criticized just because it doesn't match yours

[yetigonecrazy]

I harbor no aspirations of a first descent or any of that jazz. In fact, quite the opposite. I was hoping that some others had done these so they could at the very least let us know "go/dont go"......I know everyone is different and I respect everyones opinions as their own. I know if I found a sweet canyon or someone was asking about an obscure canyon i knew of, i would at least post a picture and say "its worth it" or "dont go, it sucks", because i would be excited someone was talking about an area i'd been and was familiar with. but, again, thats just me. and how i respond to situations like "secret" canyons is different than others. just because i feel like its kind of a bummer doesnt mean everyone has to. thats when the internets works perfect, when everyone gets to feel how they want and no one bashes their opinions, and bogley is thankfully that refreshing place. i dont begrudge anyone for having their own thoughts, opinions, and courses of logic and action, and if they dont want to reveal anything, then no worries either! :) but the worst thing i could do is not ask at all. thanks for the reply. have a great day.

[Slot Machine]

I do find it interesting that most very experienced canyoneers, with the partial exception of those that profit from information, seem to believe there is some "line" beyond where canyons should remain under the radar, mysterious, or if you prefer, the dreaded term "secret". -john

One great thing about Bogley, perhaps the best thing, is the free flow of information. If you have a question, it almost always gets answered. If you want to discuss something on a map, it's free game.

The "line" lies only in the minds of those that draw it.

Your comment reminds me of something that a "very experienced canyoneer" told me. He runs one of the best free beta sites around, and I hope he doesn't mind if I quote him. When I asked him about his position on sharing beta he told me, "I personally like to share things. Not just canyons but all things. Sharing makes the world a better place in my opinion in just about all respects." I obviously agree.

So, share on Yeti! If we were living in 1985 the majority of canyoneers would not support you. Today is a different story. Your mileage won't vary.

Holey Moley looks really good. Access from the very top of the canyon would be a serious undertaking but any way you could get in would probably work out....It sits in a crack between multiple domes so I feel like this could hold some nice problems perhaps......not to mention the final rap looks fun. A note about this, we asked a ranger what this canyon was called, she didn't think it had an official name, they just called it "Holey Moley" because of the holes in the rocks. So, FWIW.

4 Is short, but if you were already in the area checking out #5 then why miss and op for another one?

Putting this thread back on track, I agree that Holey Moley looks fun! What a great name for that slot/feature/area.

Also, 4 & 5 would make a great combo. I hope you keep me in mind if you head out there to do them!

[Iceaxe]

I do find it interesting that most very experienced canyoneers, with the partial exception of those that profit from information, seem to believe there is some "line" beyond where canyons should remain under the radar, mysterious, or if you prefer, the dreaded term "secret".

Really??? My experience has been just the opposite... excluding a couple rare exceptions I find most experienced canyoneers are very generous with “their” beta…. The only real difference among the experienced canyoneers I’ve experienced is they each have their own preferred method of distributing “their” beta.

YMMV

[outsider]

Yeti, I apologize if I came across as ragging on you for asking as that was not the intent. Absolutely nothing wrong with asking, and obviously, since you are asking you are interested in answers if they are out there. And if someone has the info and can/wants to share, no problemo. Can I ask you a couple of questions? Did you enjoy the process of studying Google Earth, digging into slot possibilities? Did you enjoy poking around the Saddle Arch / Holey Moley area, not knowing what you'd find? Looks like fun stuff from the armchair. If you decide to explore one of these places sans beta, do you think it would provide a fun experience? Or would you rather know before you go (i.e. would you be disappointed if an exploration turned out to be a dud)?
Last, I hear you loud and clear Slot et al and am definitely aware that opinions differ. But I would be curious 15-20 years down the road, if you continue your current path of canyoneering (or other outdoor pursuits), whether your views change at all. In the meantime, I guess it's back to 1985 for me.
-john
Ps. Iceaxe, yes, at least somewhat agree with you. But the differences are more than I want get into here...

[Iceaxe]

Ps. Iceaxe, yes, at least somewhat agree with you. But the differences are more than I want get into here...

Too bad.... I would have liked to hear your opinion of the differences.

As far as canyoneering on the Colorado Plateau is concerned I think I know most the experienced canyoneers, share beta with them, have canyoneered with them and consider them friends. We have spent many hours sitting around, drinking beer and discussing our various methods and approaches to distributing beta.

Anyhoo.... I think I have a good understanding of the pro’s and cons of each method, but I’m always interested in hearing an outsiders view if you ever care to discuss.....

[yetigonecrazy]

@outsider - No offense was taken, rest assured!

I do enjoy the armchair process because I simply don't have the opportunities I would like to get out and seek out these new treasures. Living in Colorado, and being a broke late 20-something, my trips to Utah are usually planned out a month in advance, and since I only travel with my canyon buddies really once or twice a year, it's just not possible for me to just get out and go. I know a fair amount of people on this site are able to do that, because of jobs, location, and the desire to go. Unfortunately for me, all I have is the desire to go. My location and economic status presents me from being able to get out there on a whim or a desire. I'm just one that likes to have more beta than less beta, because I am an information junkie. Knowing what's in the canyon takes nothing away from the experience for me. In fact, it usually enhances it because it makes the anticipation greater, at least for me. But I still enjoy the unknown, and I was really sad to a) have to turn back in Saddle Arch Cyn and b) not be with experienced canyoneers to have a look at Holey Moley.

My background before I got into canyoneering was (and still is) the world of kayaking. And if you ever thought beta sharing was a sensitive issue in this sport, then I suggest tuning in for a couple of years in the kayak industry. I do the same thing for kayaking that I do canyoneering (armchair exploration of new/obscure runs) because I enjoy the hunt. I have been reading USGS maps since I was six, and had the $30 year subscription to the program "Keyhole" when it first came out, a program that would later become the free Google Earth. But as I said before, since I don't have the time or ability to pull off these news descents, it is enough for me to enjoy simply contributing an idea. However, in the kayaking world, people get their panties in twists WAY tighter than here, and I've actually received threats of assaults and warnings not to travel to certain places for fear of people wanting to shut me up because of my first descent/obscure run hobby. So needless to say, I've learned to grow a thick skin when dealing with sensitive subjects like this.

The few times it works out is nice though. Ideally, first I do some research and armchair exploration, find some ideas, do some math and number crunching, and decide what ideas to bring to the table. Then, someone else, who has more skills and opportunities than I, gets to go out and do it, and then report back. Sometimes its good, and sometimes its not so good. I don't seek any fame or mention or anything. All I would expect is a photo or a quick word. If you go do one these canyons and can claim a first d, then by all means, do it! I will just be excited that it got done at all! I don't care if others are able to claim glory on my shoulders; its one of the unfortunate side effects of not having that freedom to canyoneer when i want, where i want. All I ask is if you do end up finding goods in one of my ideas, that you just simply let me know. I don't ask for a full TR. You don't even have to public post it, just PM me. A pic of a rap, and the caption "its worth it". Or a comment like "full of brush, flat, don't do it".

The one thing that would upset me about it is if someone went and did one of these, and then never said a word. Of course, everyone is free to their own actions and my frustrations will be personal and silent.

I don't mean to try and reveal anyone's secret canyons either. I know all of you have your own personal gems out there, and I am envious that you do. But if I stumbled across one of them by accident, please don't get angry at me. I'm not asking for a full beta TR. Again, just a "its good". Or a "don't bother". But like I said, the worst I could do is not ask!

Have a great day and thanks for the great replies!
yeti

[ratagonia]

The one thing that would upset me about it is if someone went and did one of these, and then never said a word. Of course, everyone is free to their own actions and my frustrations will be personal and silent.

How could it upset you, since you would not know about it?

Tom

[yetigonecrazy]

Upset was too strong a word because it denotes strong feelings. More......"Bothered". And I can't know, so I only let it bother me for a minute or two and then forget about it, and all of it will be kept silent, just like I said.

In fact, I suspect that most if not all of these have had plenty of visitors before. Some of them probably hundreds of folks.

But there is a big difference between posting a TR with beta and saying "it's been done".

An unfortunately there are folks out there who feel like saying even that little is offering up too much. But, so be it. No point in getting mad....it's unlikely I will ever have a chance in the near future to check these out for myself so I guess in the end of the day they get filed back in that "Unknown/Obscure" folder.

And if that's where people want it kept......There shall it rest.

....at least until the next curious individual comes along.

Thanks for the reply. Have a good day!

[Iceaxe]

How could it upset you, since you would not know about it?

I've always maintained the biggest mistake an individual wanting to keep a canyon secret can make is to give it a name....

[yetigonecrazy]

Well thanks everyone for the replies. I didn't mean for this to turn into a philosophical debate on access, and I'm sorry if anyone was offended. Just wanted to put some stoke out there for those looking for their next great adventure!

[outsider]

Thanks for your detailed response, Yeti. Nice of you to throw out some potential canyons to be explored, whether you're a part of it or not. My thread sidetrack wasn't really warranted, especially as it seems like the Torrey / northern part of Cap Reef could use a few more publically beta'd canyons (if they exist and it makes sense). And to continue the hijack one last time... I guess what I was wondering is, where does it end? In 20 years, will we have Siri telling us what to expect as we approach any canyon on the CP? That doesn't sound like fun, at least not all the time. And I think the "put your hands over your eyes and ears" argument is weak. On the flip side, we all have benefitted greatly from public beta. I have a pile of guide books on my office floor, and scan the internet for info just like everyone else. Many, many good times have come from that info, so yes, a true "thanks" to those that have provided. And I suppose that is a compelling reason for sharing all, but I just can't buy it (yet). And I hear you on the "make maximum use of canyon time". Exploring takes time, vs. the known gratification of the published classics. I internally debate this when planning many trips. I've been fortunate to be invited on a few explores, as well as organized a couple. With the unknown comes the bad (boiling my brain in Bonita comes to mind) and the good (e.g. Duckett is a little gem). But every one of those experiences, good or "bad", was pretty neat. I've got a LONG list of classics yet to do, but I find myself more and more wandering in the (slowly) diminishing unknown. But I realize that's not everyones cup of tea; I just wonder if there is a way to find a balance...-john

[Slot Machine]

I didn't mean for this to turn into a philosophical debate on access, and I'm sorry if anyone was offended. Just wanted to put some stoke out there for those looking for their next great adventure!

You didn't turn it into a philosophical debate. You need not apologize.

I've had this happen multiple times. I ask about a canyon. Someone asks me whether I've considered the impact of asking about that canyon. Paraphrasing, I tell them that I obviously don't give a shit about the impact of my question, that I'm simply just asking about a canyon. Much arguing, waffling and sharing of mixed feelings ensues.

Multiple people have asked me to remove posts or be hush-hush about things that I've posted. Hell, the National Park Service even asked me to modify one thing that I posted.

The Park Service had a clear and logical argument as to why I should edit that post. I gladly complied to preserve the environment surrounding one great canyoneering route and to maintain good relations that allow canyoneers access to that particular fragile environment.

Unless there is an obvious detrimental impact to something you post, then screw the people that suggest you take some poorly defined action based on some vague canyoneering ethic that the majority of canyoneers never even think about.

FWIW yeti, I really enjoyed the first three posts in this thread. I have discussions like this all the time via email and find the armchair aspect of canyoneering as enjoyable as anyone. What else are you going to do while you are at work? Work??

[Iceaxe]

If anyone seriously wants to do unbetaed slot canyon projects feel free to hit me up side band as I have a couple hundred I'll never get to in my life time. Many I know will yield high quality results. But understand before going in my projects come with strings attached. And the strings are different depending on the project.

Sent using Tapatalk

[CarpeyBiggs]

If anyone seriously wants to do unbetaed slot canyon projects feel free to hit me up side band as I have a couple hundred I'll never get to in my life time. Many I know will yield high quality results. But understand before going in my projects come with strings attached. And the strings are different depending on the project.

What are your objections to sharing these canyon projects publicly? If you already know they will yield high quality results, share the prospects, and the possible logistical issues involved. I'm sure someone would be thrilled to go and check them out.

[Slot Machine]

What are your objections to sharing these canyon projects publicly? ... I'm sure someone would be thrilled to go do check them out.

Heck yeah, sharing time!

What a fun and exciting way to unhijack this thread!