Stuck Rope on Spry

[TonkSnatcher]

I did Spry with 4 other guys last Sat. On Rap 9, we got the rope stuck and didn't have time to deal with it. We ended up just cutting it and leaving.

I was just curious if anyone came upon the rope how it looked stuck. My guess was the rope twisted and got stuck that way but I really wanted to know what it looked like. We were using a biner block but then transitioned to a throw and go.

thanks.

[Deathcricket]

The last rap or 2nd to last rap and bypassed the last rap? I might go up and grab it for a free rope and biner.

[TonkSnatcher]

We did the last rap off of the arch and scrambled to the river bottom. The rap that we stuck the rope on was the 3rd from the end. It's the rap and ends in a deep pothole then you slide down into the long hallway swim.

There is no biner and just a 15-20 foot section of the rope. We cut it. If you want it....it's all yours.

[sharon]

We did Spry Saturday afternoon and found your rope. It was twisted four or five times so no surprise that it didn't pull. I asked around the ACA rendezvous at the Zion Ponderosa Saturday night trying to find the person/group who stuck it but I guess you weren't there. Ended up bringing it home to Indiana with me. I can always find a use for another piece of rope. (Thanks.)

[TonkSnatcher]

We couldn't see how twisted it was from where we were pulling. We started pulling from the bottom of the slide into the hallway. At anyrate, thanks for replying to the post. Hope that piece of rope serves you well.

[Slot Machine]

We also had a problem pulling our rope at that rappel due to the serious rope grooves.

Rap 8 is 50 feet and riddled with huge rope grooves. It is followed by a short wade to a 10 foot drop. The drop would be downclimbable with dry shoes, but turns into a potential broken femur with wet sandy shoes. If you stay on rope and go down the 10 foot drop, the pull is very difficult; Your rope will unavoidably fall into grooves several inches deep. We spent an hour getting our rope down.

At the 10 foot drop there is a sheared off bolt. Most of the rope grooves at rap 8 are caused by trying to pull the rope from down canyon (past the sheared off bolt). Replacing the sheared off bolt would prevent further grooving, make rope pulls a lot easier and make the 10 foot drop a lot safer (especially in wet conditions). If I had a bolt kit, and was heading down Spry, well, I might consider replacing the bolt between rap 8 and rap 9.

Just a suggestion.

[ratagonia]

It is followed by a short wade to a 10 foot drop. The drop would be downclimbable with dry shoes, but turns into a potential broken femur with wet sandy shoes.

Try it without your pack on. It's easy. Or, if there is someone more-skilled in your group, they could provide you with a handline and go last.

At the 10 foot drop there is a sheared off bolt. Most of the rope grooves at rap 8 are caused by trying to pull the rope from down canyon (past the sheared off bolt). Replacing the sheared off bolt would prevent further grooving, make rope pulls a lot easier and make the 10 foot drop a lot safer (especially in wet conditions). If I had a bolt kit, and was heading down Spry, well, I might consider replacing the bolt between rap 8 and rap 9.

I cut that bolt off about 8 years ago. Sorry I did not do a better job.

"Replacing the sheared off bolt would prevent further grooving,"

Really? I don't think so. I think very few people rap that second section, and pull from below... in fact I have not heard of anyone doing so before (other than you and TonkSnatcher), but it is not a common topic of conversation, so I guess people might. Perhaps a common rookie mistake.

The rock in Spry is not very hard, and grooves easily. The canyon sees a lot of traffic. That particular pull, from the bottom of the rappel (the first bottom), pulls your wet, sandy rope across a rib. It gets cut up by that pull.

We call this the "2nd Flute rappel", and many people choose to delicately balance into the second flute so they can avoid the swim at the bottom of the first flute. But if you want no rope pulling problems, and no rope grooving, pulling from the bottom of the first flute is the way to go.

Some other things that can make the pull easier:

- pulling sooner - ie, at the base of the second flute.
- trying different pull positions, to find the easiest place.
- rappelling single strand, thus keeping the rappel and pull side separate, so they do not get twisted, and so that when there are grooves, both ropes don't end up in the same groove.
- flipping the ropes out of the groove.
- setting the rope length. If you set the rope length, then you pull the least rope through the ring, and minimize the difficulty of the pull, and the possibility of it getting stuck.
- keeping your ropes clean. In a wet sandy canyon like Spry this can be difficult, but dunking the rope in its rope bag after each rappel to keep it as clean as possible helps. Quite a bit, actually.

I would say: you made a rookie mistake, overestimated the difficulty of a downclimb, rappelled well past the normal end of the rappel, then had trouble pulling the rope. No surprise. But your rookie mistake is no reason to put steel to rock and pound away.

Besides which, breaking your femur is pretty hard. Seems like a Tib Fib would be MUCH more likely at that spot.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Well, the downclimb looked tough, but not terrifying, with wet sandy boots. With dry boots, it would be no problem. I opted to rappel and get out of my friend's way so he could come down without having to stand in the chilly water. He rapped down and checked out the downclimb. He is 6 feet tall and has gorilla arms; 6'6" from fingertip to fingertip. He bridged the downclimb to assess the risk and said "no way". He rapped down, couldn't pull the rope, hand-over-handed back up the rope (he got really intimate with that drop) then, on second glance, still said "no way" to the downclimb. He rapped down a second time after rearranging the ropes so the pull went through a rope grove on top of the fin and the other end was draped underneath the fin so it freely swung into the first flute.

Really? I don't think so. I think very few people rap that second section, and pull from below... Perhaps a common rookie mistake.

I disagree. I think that is precisely why that bolt was there in the first place. It's existence would "encourage" one to stand under the first flute and pull the rope clean-ish-ly. Then it allows you to walk over to the ten foot drop and choose your preferred method of descent.

Since the bolt is not at the 10 foot drop it forces a decision; should one do a sketchy downclimb or should one rappel? Well, the rope is already attached to the harness, might as well rappel, right? Right! Heck, even the last person down would frequently assume this is the prudent course of action. The sheer number of grooves on the fin and their astonishing depth bolster the argument that this "rookie mistake" happens all too frequently.

The fin that divides the first flute from the second lies directly between the anchor for rap #8 and the dry area by the chopped bolt. It is impossible to pull the rope from the dry area (or the bottom of the 10 foot drop) without deeply grooving the fin. Grooving the rib by pulling from the first flute is far less damaging; it is the lesser of two evils.

IMO, the deep rope grooves on the fin are much more destructive than one simple bolt on a wall. Both suck, I'm simply saying one is worse than the other. I'll bet the person that originally bolted the 10 foot drop was thinking along the same line, they weren't simply being lazy or unskilled about it.

But of course, Herr Provocateur, your mileage may vary.

[Absolute Gravity]

This rookie mistake must be made an awful lot.


I'm a rookie granted (I have Baptist, Chambers, Boss Hog, West Lep, Spry, and Birch Hollow under my belt) but as I was standing on the top of that 10 footer I gave the rope a little tug to see how easy it would pull. It moved, but not easily. I think this is about the time that Slot Machine (SM) asked me if I wanted to pull the rope from up there and then down climb. The down climb didn't look horrible at that point, but it was kinda wet and slick. While I think I am a better down climber on these types of obstacles than SM, being the rookie I am the path he takes heavily influences the path that I take. But what really made up my mind was the rope grooves. As I looked back at those grooves it seemed obvious to my lying eyes that a large quantity of ropes were being pulled from where SM was standing. Those grooves were way deeper then anything I have seen yet and there were lots of them. Hell, one big one was on the underside of a nose low on that fin and is being cut upwards. Just the angles of most of them indicated that they were not being pulled from the bottom of either flute. And to my rookie brain if everyone is pulling their ropes from lower down and making those nasty grooves then there must be something hard about getting down that 10 footer without a rope.


So I'm with SM on this. While, "Hey asshole, quit being a wuss, pull your rope and down climb this little 10 footer" must have been the correct answer, that bolt at least makes the wrong answer less destructive. I wouldn't make this argument for any other obstacle I've come across so far, but Spry is already thoroughly bolted, and that fin looks like someone has taken a chainsaw to it over and over and over again. If that bolt prevents more of it from happening I think it is worth it, again, in this one case. Less ropes getting stuck would be a nice side benefit too.

[Slot Machine]

I wouldn't make this argument for any other obstacle I've come across so far, but Spry is already thoroughly bolted, and that fin looks like someone has taken a chainsaw to it over and over and over again. If that bolt prevents more of it from happening I think it is worth it, again, in this one case. Less ropes getting stuck would be a nice side benefit too.

X 2

[sharon]

Well, the downclimb looked tough, but not terrifying, with wet sandy boots. With dry boots, it would be no problem.

OK, this is only my second post on this forum and I perhaps may regret getting into this but... I'm no super downclimber and the other three people in our group were: a first-time canyoneer (but experienced caver), a first-timer to Spry, and a person who always chooses rappelling over downclimbing when given a choice (which, in this case, he wasn't as I had already pulled our rope). None of us had any trouble with the 10' downclimb, or even hesitated there. MAYBE it was because we were all wearing 5.10 Canyoneers, which I find are even grippier wet than dry? Maybe because I went first and simply announced that "this is a downclimb" so they just did it? (I'm well aware that sometimes something that I think looks sketchy on first examination then seems infinitely easier after I see someone do it.) I don't know but I certainly think a body-belayed handline is all that's necessary to safely protect that short downclimb, which really isn't difficult even if it may be intimidating until you try it.

Poor Spry, a truly lovely canyon forever disfigured by this sport that I love. Made me sad, even as I was having fun descending it.

[Absolute Gravity]

Maybe because I went first and simply announced that "this is a downclimb" so they just did it?

Of course. Had you been in front of us and said that I probably would have said "okey dokey", pulled my rope and gone right down. The point is that this mistake seems to be happening enough that it is making those rope grooves pretty damn bad. I don't see how those get that bad if you are pulling in either flute. I (rookie) saw those grooves and thought nobody was pulling their ropes in that flute and that there must be a reason why.
This is an issue that I might feel different about after I do Spry again. But those are my thoughts after my first time.

[ratagonia]

Of course. Had you been in front of us and said that I probably would have said "okey dokey", pulled my rope and gone right down. The point is that this mistake seems to be happening enough that it is making those rope grooves pretty damn bad. I don't see how those get that bad if you are pulling in either flute. I (rookie) saw those grooves and thought nobody was pulling their ropes in that flute and that there must be a reason why.

This is an issue that I might feel different about after I do Spry again. But those are my thoughts after my first time.

Pulling from below is not necessary to create those rope grooves.

Alternatively, only a few pulls from below might cause quite a mess of rope grooves.

Perhaps reasonable people can disagree...

Tom

[Absolute Gravity]

Pulling from below is not necessary to create those rope grooves.

I'm still learning but surely that big one on the nose is not caused when pulling your rope from the flute.

[Slot Machine]

Alternatively, only a few pulls from below might cause quite a mess of rope grooves.

Perhaps reasonable people can disagree...

Tom

The few pulls causing a mess... is precisely what I'm saying, and I agree with your comment about disagreeing.

Also, forgot to mention, your tips for making the pull easier and less damaging at that drop are very good. Thanks for posting them.

Poor Spry, a truly lovely canyon forever disfigured by this sport that I love. Made me sad, even as I was having fun descending it.

While I don't agree that 5.10's are grippier when wet , I did feel the same way about the damage when we were in Spry.

[ratagonia]

... I did feel the same way about the damage when we were in Spry.

Maybe I should have kept it secret...

sigh

Tom

[sharon]

Maybe I should have kept it secret...

sigh

Tom

Glad you didn't. Thanks for sharing.

[Iceaxe]

Poor Spry, a truly lovely canyon forever disfigured by this sport that I love. Made me sad, even as I was having fun descending it.

Blame those dang native Americans and all that graffiti (petroglyphs) chipped in the cliff for destroying the pristine conditions in spry.


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[TonkSnatcher]

Stupid stuck rope. I didn't realize what I was starting here. In the future, I will pull the rope and down climb.

[ratagonia]

Stupid stuck rope. I didn't realize what I was starting here. In the future, I will pull the rope and down climb.

JUST to avoid the Bogley Super-analysis????

T