Canyoneering death in the Subway

[Slipknot]

Thanks for pointing out my accidental pun....that was not my intention and now I feel awkward. I guess you will have company!

[ddavis]

[QUOTE]Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park

[xxnitsuaxx]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

[Bootboy]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

Amen.

I.e.: The guiding in the Tetons makes me sick every time I go up there. The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism". Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

[ghawk]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

x2

[dougr]

x3. We in the community have, are, and will face restrictions in the name of safety. Maybe guiding will be required ultimately. Who knows with the nanny state mentality course the country is on.

[Iceaxe]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

X4

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[erial]

some comments from Legacy.com:

September 24, 2012 Doctor Hosobuchi was my doctor in 1985 and 1987. He was a wonderful doctor. His skills fixed my back. I was barely walking and now thanks to him, I walking fine now. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always be grateful and thankful. He was in my life for a short while. ~
Janet Clark,
Antioch, California




September 22, 2012 Thank you for saving my life in 1986, Dr. Hosobuchi, even though you kept thinking I would die....I am alive because of what you did.
Thank you ~
Mousie Zavala,
Parma, Idaho





September 22, 2012 I AND MY FAMILY SEND OUR HEART-FELT SYMPATHY AND PRAYERS OF ON-GOING BLESSINGS OF COMFORT TO THE FAMILY OF YOSHIO HOSOBUCHI. I WILL FOREVER BE THANKFUL AND HAVE GRADITUDE FOR DR. HOSOBUCHI SAVING MY LIFE WHEN I HAD A CEREBRAL ANEURYSM IN 1977. HIS EXCELLENT SKILLS AS A NEUROSURGEON WERE TRULY A BLESSING TO ME AND TO OTHERS AT UC MOFFIT HOSPITAL IN SAN FRANCISCO. AS GOD BLESSED ME THRU HIM, I PRAY THAT GOD WILL BLESS ALL OF YOU AND LOVINGLY SUPPORT AND HELP YOU ALL WITH YOU LOSS.
SINCERELY, LORENE JOHNSON AND FAMILY OF OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 22, 2012.

[deagol]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

X5. Please don't allow guiding in Zion

[mdd]

The interview with the guide in the articles brings up an important point that I think many people have missed.

The couple in this tragic accident had a descent of the Subway on their "bucket list". Because of regulations they couldn't hire a guide to take them there safely, so they do what is allowed - they take a class, just before their canyon, to learn the skills to get them through, then descend it sans guide.

I am willing to bet that, had a guide service been allowed to take them through, they would have done so in lieu of taking the classes, perhaps preventing this tragedy.

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system. You can then apply a flow of logic that can, at least in a small way, implicate the permit system as a factor in this tragedy.

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

I hope people remember to mention this to Jock when he starts asking for public comments on the permit system again down the road sometime.

M

[hank moon]

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season. Off season, there is no competition for permits already, except in super high-demand canyons such as Mystery and Subway. Practically no-one is doing Telephone (hardly ever, really).

[Iceaxe]

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system.

Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.

Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season.

I'd prefer to not let the guiding genie out of the bottle under any circumstance.

I remember the day when Zion backcountry permits didn't exist, and I remember the day when they were free, voluntary and used as an extra measure of safety.... And now we have the current permit mess.... all because we let the permit genie out of the bottle......

YMMV

[mdd]

Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then. From the Zion BMP, appendix E (bolding is mine):

Should commercial guiding be allowed in the Primitive Zone?
172 comments received on this topic

• 37 percent (from form letter) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 45 percent (not form letters) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
• 15 percent stated that commercial guiding should be allowed
• 3 percent had no clear stand on commercial guiding
• The most frequent reason given by those opposed to guiding was concern that commercial operations would take all available permits. Many of those who indicated a support for commercial guiding indicated that a system should be put in place that eliminates competition between private and commercial groups for permits.
• The second most common reason given by those opposed to guiding was a belief that commercial operations do not have a place in Zion’s backcountry, and that there are other areas outside of Zion available for the activity.
• Those in favor of guiding commented on the ability of guides to promote safe canyoneering and resource conservation.

--

Further in Appendix E, ZNP gives its rationale for banning guides:

A permit system is currently in place to keep use levels at, or near, proposed social or resource standards for canyoneering trips as well as overnight trips in the Primitive Zone.... An additional group of users would put additional pressure on all areas within the Primitive Zone.

Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate.

--

This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.


M

[mtn_dude]

This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.

Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too? I ask because from reports on this past weeks accident a group that had passed Mr. Hosobuchi told a Park ranger up top that there was an elderly couple still way behind. If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night. But from what this part that MDD has from ZNP sounds more like the permit system is strictly to limit numbers.
As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

[Iceaxe]

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then.

I agree completely that a limited number of permits has established and additional barrier to commercial guiding inside Zion.

I was just pointing out that Zion has never allowed guiding for various reasons.

I honestly don't think guiding would be allowed in a lot of NP's, like Grand Teton, if they had not of been grandfathered in when the NP was created.

[Iceaxe]

Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too?

Originally the permit system was a safety measure implemented after the Boy Scouts in Kolob disaster. It has now morphed into many different things and the original intent has all but been forgotten, as is standard operating procedure when a large bureaucracy gets it's hands on something. When the permit system was first implemented permits were free, there was no quote, obtaining a permit was encouraged but not required, obtaining a permit was volunteery.

If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night.

SAR doesn't typically launch for over due hikers. Lots of folks are forced into a bivy for various reasons and the large majority of them walk out on their own the next morning. It is not uncommon for the first groups emerging from the Subway the next day to have lost or slow hikers from the day before in tow. In this particular case I assume the rangers were keeping an eye on the situation and would have launched if the first groups through the next day had of reported a problem or reported not seeing the missing hikers.

As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

You need to differentiate between "commercial guiding" and friendship guiding. A lot of guiding goes on inside Zion, its just not commercial. Scout leaders guiding scout troops, "Canyon leaders" guiding groups through at rendezvous, A friend buying the beer and pizza in appreciation, yada, yada...

[Brian in SLC]

Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park — they would compete for a limited number of hiking permits.
"People are going in without knowledge or experience and don't even have the ability to hire a guide," said Banach of Zion Mountain School in Springdale, Utah, the park's main entrance. He guides hikers outside Zion National Park.

I'll have to admit those statements above made me kinda ill when I read them. Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air. They took a course from a local guide service before they went, and, learned a technique that may have been an issue. You want self serving? There ya go. Maybe they went to a rival company. Smell a lawsuit? I do.

[Iceaxe]

Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air.

That was my first thought when I read the comments.......

[ratagonia]

THIS is the problem. Newbies shouldn't lead newbies. While Subway (or any other route) might IDEALLY be very simple and straightforward, tons of people (apparently including Guides) are sending people out there with the bare-bones skills needed to do the route under optimal conditions. When things go perfect - no problem. But when something goes differently, too many folks don't have the most basic of skills to even recognize that something is off, or to even know what their options are.

Not everyone needs to carry a bolt kit. Not everyone needs to have strong self-rescue skills. Not everyone has to be able to rig a 6-point equalized anchor and do an aussie-style rappel. But someone in EVERY party (if not everyone in the party) should at least know how to ascend a rope, and have the experience to evaluate common situations and recognize a potential pitfall before it happens.

...

Maybe this is me coming from a more conservative climbing ethic, but I was a bit shocked at how casual, and lax the culture around rappelling seemed to be in Zion. I appreciate the climbing mentors I had they rightfully make me super cautious when learning how to place protection, analyze and build anchors every which possible way, and learn self-rescue skills before I headed off in the backcountry. I felt that the canyoneering culture I encountered on this trip didn't share this ethic. As but one example - I was surprised that renting gear is the norm - you are hard pressed to find a climbing shop that would rent a harness and rope. (I'm not opposed to this - but I think it does reflect a much more casual safety ethic)

Is this a great country, or what?

Seriously. People with little sense and less skill have the perfect right to go out and put themselves and others in danger.

I think this is a good thing. And I don't think there is anything good that can be done to "prevent it", though many of us work pretty hard to convince people that yes, they really maybe otta have some skills before venturing out into the wilderness.

As an experienced outdoors-person, Matt, I gotta ask - how the FRAK did you end up in the wrong canyon? Or did you intend to go there?

Thanks for taking care of the noobs who were also off-route.

By the by, 'renting gear' is not the norm. People who take a course with ZAC are priviliged to rent some gear and borrow ropes. I do not know the policy of the other shops. Also, people can rent some gear at ZAC on occasion, at the choice of the staff-person. When people forget harnesses or helmets, for instance, we consider it a good thing to help these people out, especially if they are prior customers. We reserve the right to refuse this service for any reason.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism".

Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

Really? You must be reading different history books than I am. Your first statement is not supported by the facts.

The NPS in many parks (Rainier, Tetons) originally provided the guides as part of their 'service'. After that period there is a long history of the guide service (usually exactly one) and the Park working closely together. The mission of the National Parks is to preserve and protect the park, and to foster recreation and enjoyment of the Parks. Early in its history, the NPS placed considerable emphasis on the latter, and moved aggressively to bring people to the parks and provide services for visitors when they got there, in many cases including guided hiking and climbing opportunities.

You will no doubt be disappointed that Zion National Park no longer provides ranger-guided horse-rides into the Narrows or up to Cabin Springs for lunch, on the West Rim, as they did into the late 50's or early 60's.

As part of the political process, guide services have been instrumental in assuring that rich people (the guided class) provide political support for the National Parks, and specifically for the guide service concessionaires in National Parks.

If anything, Zion National Park is an anomaly in not allowing concessionaire guiding in the backcountry.

"Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea."

I am happy to have you express your opinion, especially if you would clarify:

What is "the whole idea"?

And how does guiding conflict with this?

(I personally do not think guiding in Zion National Park is a good idea. I think it could be a good idea if administered well, but I think the chances of it being administered well are low.)

Tom