Canyoneering death in the Subway

[SRG]

How is guiding people in a Park consumption?

Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.

[ratagonia]

That's what I suggested about this past week.

I agree full fledged rescue missions shouldn't be sent everytime a car is left at a trailhead. But when a suggestion comes that someone might need help they could respond in like manner to the story you shared and didn't happen in last weeks situation.
This would make it clear that the permit system isn't just about limiting numbers and is there to provide a safety net for when things go wrong or people don't realize what they're in for with particular hikes.

We (a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

Excuse me.

The permit system is there to limit social interactions, so people visiting the park will have the Wilderness experience the park has decided is appropriate for us.

The rest is window dressing and post-decision justification.

Are you volunteering? You have WFR or WEMT cert? How many days a week are you available?

Tom

[ratagonia]

The thing about noticing slow folks is, that, overnight unplanned bivy's in Zion happen all the time with no consequences. Eh Tom? Eh Kip? Ha ha.

I still feel bad you camped in the woman's toilet at the TOS...

I think you're crossing stories there... I spent the night at Big Bend on the tarmac, enjoying the stars and my 101 deg fever...

Tom

[ratagonia]

Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.

Intelligent people can disagree.

"Consumption" and "Occupation" are words of exclusive use. One problem with extractive industries is they tend to make the resource undesirable for all other users. National Forests - the Land of Many Uses - are an example. Once clear cut, the 'forest' is no longer of much use to anyone else for quite some time. Is this how you feel about guided groups?

People who prefer to use guides are members of the public too. The couple involved in this incident probably would have preferred being guided through the Subway, rather than taking a class, then self-guiding. Are you choosing to exclude these citizens from visiting The Subway because they lack the technical skills needed, that they could hire for a reasonable fee, were it allowed, because it offends your sense of propriety?

There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide. Though they are competent canyoneers, they choose to do technical canyons with a hearing guide because it seems wise, and they can afford it. The Park has (on one occasion) given them a special use permit to be guided inside the Park. Does this offend your sense of propriety?

Visiting Yosemite, are you disgusted knowing that up there on El Cap, there is likely a pair of climbers, one of which is a professional climbing guide leading a client?

I find it a strange sense of propriety that professionals assisting citizens in visiting their national parks, catalyzing a deeper, more meaningful experience is somehow tawdry.

Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.

Zion National Park and the Zion Field Institute lead interpretive hikes every day. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

Inside Zion National Park is a hotel, with people working there, cooking burgers, cleaning rooms. Does this upset your sense of propriety?



Tom

[SRG]

Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.

Hah, my "tent of worthy persons"? I made it clear that my argument was principle based and at no point did I judge the merits of hiring a guide.

There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide.

C'monnnnn. Don't try and make it sound like I want to deny your deaf clients their right to see the canyons just because you and I have different views on the proper use of National Park lands. I think your deaf clients should be granted a special use permit without question every time they want to canyoneer.

I find it a strange sense of propriety that ... experience is somehow tawdry.

Again, I'm not judging the guide/guidee experience.

The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

I think these super polarized examples are inane. I understand that some commerce is going to happen in National Parks and I'm okay with it, I'm not an extremist. I do however feel that there is a line, and commercial guiding is over that line.

-Sam

[oldno7]

I'm sooo glad to see Tom encouraging guiding in the National park and utilizing it's resources!

Now about the guiding permit for deer, elk, mountain lion, bear harvest.

Or does Tom only selectively want guiding that benefits him and his millionaire boss?

Nah--couldn't be to help out the millionaire boss, both Tom and Hank despise rich folks.

So, back on subject, would guiding have saved this poor mans life?? We'll never know.

Was a guide companies teaching technique at least partly at fault? I say theres a case.

[ratagonia]

Hah, my "tent of worthy persons"? I made it clear that my argument was principle based and at no point did I judge the merits of hiring a guide.

-Sam

Yes you do.

I'm asking for an argument as to why this is something the people of America should not enjoy in their National Parks. (In most Parks, they do).

My apologies for the "extension to absurdity". But I am trying to tease out where you draw the line. OK as long as they are Park employees? Hotels OK but guides not?

The distinction makes no sense to me, so I look for you to look inside your head and explain why guiding is tawdry but other people making money off the tourists is not? Or which ones are and which ones are not.

----

I also am trying to point out that there is a LOT of commercial activities inside National Parks, so I wonder how this effects your experience and why you single out guides ando/or Zion for your argument of principle?

Tom

[Scott P]

We(a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

Then why don't you? Many of the rangers are volunteers anyway, are they not?

Also, having something like that may also produce more people that expect to be helped. "Hey lets start the Subway at noon. If we don't make it by dark, the ranger will come and help us".

Having assured (or percieved assurance) rescue causes people to take more risk. This has already been proven many times in many locations throughout the world, from the Himalaya to the Alps to our National Parks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, as far as guiding goes, my opinion is that the Subway is just too crowded/popular of a route to guide. It could be argued that the guide also has the same right as an independent person in doing the Subway, and that every person in the canyon is equal in making the canyon crowded, but the independent person (at least in theory) is there primarily to see the canyon/experience the beauty/challenge (which guides might also enjoy) rather than for employment. For every small group of clients, a guide would another person to an already popular route that has already seen the canyon many times and may not be there primarily to experience the canyon, while the clients and independent people would likely only go a few times a year at most. If the Subway wasn't so popular and didn't need quotas, it might be different. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

[erial]

Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail about 11:45 a.m. as she was hiking out.


I imagine that caller had just gotten into cel phone range when the call was made. Did the caller merely want to give the park a no cause for alarm heads up or was the caller anticipating that immediate assistance would be rendered. Might be enlightening to hear from that caller. Perhaps that group did offer to accompany the doctor and his wife and the couple indicated that they were prepared for a bivy if necessary and waved that group on.

In a case of a medical emergency such as a broken bone, I would think that an overtaking group would provide any assistance needed. Actually, I know they would because I've read of such accounts on this forum. But what do you do if you were to encounter someone headed for unplanned after dark travel. Do you offer up matches, flashlight, space blanket?

What if the person's not in immediate distress, but likely soon to suffer consequences of heat exhaustion or dehydration. Do you continue on your way hoping for the best or do you hang around offering support?

The doctor's spouse might ultimately tell the story of their last adventure together, but a lot of grief must be borne first.

[SRG]

why guiding is tawdry

I didn't imply that guiding was tawdry, I implied that it is a business transaction where one person pays someone else for a service. It's a private company charging for access to land... and because it is National Park land I think it's wrong.
In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service(in theory "the people").

[2065toyota]

Please save me almighty government from anything bad that might every happen to me. And if it does, please send me a check in the mail for putting myself at risk and getting hurt. Without hunting there would be way fewer animals. Without guides there would be way fewer hikers. Without as many hikers there wouldn't be large "profitable" companies making all this cool and safe gear we use to explore new canyons and enjoy the existing ones. I am going to go as much as I can before the government and environmentalists shut all of it down on the slowly but methodial course they are on. When it comes down to it, we all need to join together to fight against these forces or hopefully you took a lot pictures that you can sit back and enjoy

[Iceaxe]

NPS Morning Report
Wednesday, September 26, 2012

Zion National Park (UT)
Man Dies In Canyoneering Accident

On Wednesday, September 19th, 2012 park rangers determined that Yoshio Hosobuchi, age 74, had died while descending the Left Fork of the North Creek, a popular canyoneering route known as The Subway. Rangers began to look for Hosobuchi and his wife, based on a report from another hiker who was concerned the couple might be caught by darkness. Rangers made contact with Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail who reported Hosobuchi had flipped upside down while rappelling the previous evening and she had been unable to free him. The couple was at the last obstacle of the technical portion of the canyon, a 15-foot rappel, and chose to use an anchor different from the one listed in the route description. The anchor they chose increased the difficulty of the rappel as the location is overhung, free-hanging and in an active waterfall. Hosobuchi’s wife completed the rappel first. Hosobuchi was using a Blue Water VT below his rappel device and attached to his leg loop as a backup. Hosobuchi began his rappel when he flipped upside down, possibly due to the weight of his pack. It appears that when Hosobuchi inverted, the VT slid into the rappel device and jammed it. Due to the overhung and free-hanging nature of the location, Hosobuchi had no leverage to assist in righting himself even after he dropped his pack and his wife pulled on the rope to attempt to move him sideways, towards a wall. Hosobuchi then attempted to free himself by cutting the waist belt of his harness. When he cut through the waist belt, the leg loops of his harness slid down and caught around his ankles and canyoneering boots. Hosobuchi was now hanging upside down from his ankles in an active waterfall approximately 6 feet off the ground. Hosobuchi’s wife repeatedly attempted to pull him free from his harness by pulling on his hands, but was unable to free him from the harness before leaving him to seek help. Rangers reached Hosobuchi in the late afternoon of September 19 and confirmed that he had not survived. A helicopter from the Grand Canyon recovered his body the following morning. Rangers worked closely with Washington County Sheriff’s office and the local medical examiner on the investigation.
[Submitted by Therese Picard, Canyon District Ranger]

[Deathcricket]

[QUOTE=erial;512115]Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi

[2065toyota]

So it is the Z crew's fault again

[ratagonia]

I didn't imply that guiding was tawdry, I implied that it is a business transaction where one person pays someone else for a service. It's a private company charging for access to land... and because it is National Park land I think it's wrong.

In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service (in theory "the people").

Thank you for clarifying your position.

It is not paying "to access the land", it is paying for a certain specific expertise, that the buyer is willing to pay for.

I see how some could think that making money off of activities in a National Park is something we should not encourage. This is essentially ZNP's position, that commercial activities in the BACKCOUNTRY are inappropriate. It is somewhat anomolous in the NPS system, though, and it seems a bit strange to ME that in the ZNP plans, they don't even consider discussion of it, they state as fact (or perhaps, as policy) that commercial activity in the ZNP backcountry is inappropriate.

In many parks, there is commercial activity in the backcountry. In Grand Canyon National Park there is guided hiking and guided river rafting, as in, a LOT of guided river rafting. There is nothing in the Wilderness Act that prohibits commercial activity. There is nothing in the Organic Act and other Acts of Congress that prohibit or limit commercial activity in Wilderness areas or National Parks, but then it becomes part of the management plan for each unit as to how they approach commercial activity.

Thus, across the whole system, there is a lot of commercial activity in NPS Wilderness. I'm not sure what the point of pointing that out, other than that I hope you are not too disappointed that your viewpoint is not in effect in very many NPS units.

"In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service (in theory "the people")."

So you are OK with people making a living by showing the Park to people, but have an objection to the capitalistic idea of people making a profit by creating the opportunity for people to make a living by showing the Park to people? Seems an odd distinction to make.

Anyone else interested in weighing in?

Tom

[2065toyota]

I don't see a big difference between "national park" "National forest". "BLM land". It is all land owned by the "government" that is protected for the people's use. Why one can be guided and others not is obviously not controlled by any law but only by the persons presiding over their specific tract of land. I love Zion and all national parks but I don't hold them in any higher regard than any other piece of land. I will guarantee that I've had more enjoyable times spent outside of parks than in. As long as it is fair to all involved then I am happy. Fair is definitely subjective but is usually located in the middle. Wilderness study areas right now are my biggest pet peave These areas are being closed to motor vehicle access which is only allowing a select few people who are willing to hike in to enjoy the areas. Canaan mountain being the closest to heart right now. There is an existing road that has been there for 100 years that is now shut down. I have been there a few times but now it's an 8 hour hike in. Totally illegal closure but it still happened. Snow Canyon state park is closed to off trail hiking. Does it end anywhere?Cedar Breaks is closed to making snowmobile tracks (yeah those last forever)

[erial]

Deathcricket,

The details you provided from the Z-crew as well as details contained within Iceaxe's post of the NPS report clarified my understanding of this accident. Thank you for your response. jeff

[Deathcricket]

Np here is a classic pic they took at the pools. Kinda weird to think a couple hours later a person is going to die not 50 feet behind them. Creepy IMO.

[mtthwlw]

Not Z crew's fault... but probably my parents have something to do with it. It's a double edged sword. Without my parents, my wife and I would never get to go canyoneering (Trusting babysitters all day or overnight? Forget about it.)

Every time we are a little bit late getting out of a canyon (Heaps, one day late... Orderville 6 hours late with a friend's blown knee.... probably other canyons as well) my parents start calling the backcountry desk to send them out after us. My wife and I have never given them instructions to call-- quite the opposite. We usually give two times, best case and worst case. But my parents can't help but call a few hours after the best case. They worry because they are my parents; they worry because they don't want to raise my kids. I get it.

Blame me. There is no way SAR can mobilize every time everyone reports a missing, slow, or limping along party in a canyon. I'm sure my parents aren't the only ones out there who call in at the drop of the hat. (When we spent a night in Heaps a few years ago my dad got onto the internet and found this: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/201003/slickrock.aspx this:http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...nical/preface/ and this:http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...s-Canyon/page2
This is a man who regularly calls for help when he needs to search the internet. Why was he suddenly so able to search the internet on that night?) Reading about Ralston doesn't help either.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I can't be the only one who has this problem. Can I? This last time through Imlay we told them that we would be 3 full days-- best case. They bought it.

[ststephen]

Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned. But, I would not argue that by inference all types of guiding should be allowed in all NPs. Teaching rock climbing at Yosemite; ice & snow climbing on Mt. Rainier; birding guides at South Padre Island. I think there's lots of places where it works well and makes sense. But I would not personally want to see it in Zion