Bolt and Hangers in Spanish Fork Canyon--Are They Safe?

[Sandstone Addiction]

I was told that there was a great place to practice rappelling close to the road up Spanish Fork Canyon and indeed there is. It's right across the road from the Sp. Fork River Campground across from the mouth of Diamond Fork.

We went to check it out and found the following bolts which didn't appear to be safe to me, but I wanted to ask those that know more about this than me what they think.



I've labeled them to keep them straight with the different camera angles. My main concern is with bolt #3, it is pulling nearly straight out. Bolt #2 has somewhat of a better angle (maybe 45 degrees), but I can wiggle it about 1/16th of an inch side to side.





This is from the other side.




Closer view




Same shot, zoomed in--definitely not perpandicular.




This is rigged utilizing Bolt #1. Bolt #1 appears to be at the best angle of the three (guessing 60 degrees) and didn't budge.




Other side.




There is another set of bolts and they seem to be the best but the landing is not as good.




Took this picture Saturday with my Ute and Cougar fans.



My main concern is for the safety of others, as I would not use Bolt #2 or 3.

Would it be best to remove any of them? Or is it too hard to tell without inspecting them in person?

[ratagonia]

Looks like Powers Powerbolts. Here's a link to the product page on that, with the specs in a pdf.

http://www.powers.com/product_06914.php


Bolts are very difficult to evaluate from inspection. But there is nothing wrong with pulling straight out (pure tension) - these things are strong in pure tension when properly installed (though not as strong as pure shear).

Were they properly installed?

Tom

[Sandstone Addiction]

If a bolt has some side to side play, like bolt #2, would it help to tighten it?

[Brian in SLC]

Hanger sits flush to the rock, the bolt is installed perpendicular to the surface, and, the bolt is snug?

And, you have three of them?

Very good to go.

They appear fine to me.

Sometimes the rock position dictates if the load on the bolt will be 100% shear or a combination of shear and tension. Powerbolts are pretty fine bolts. If they got snugged down and are seated flush against the hanger, they should be good.

[ratagonia]

If a bolt has some side to side play, like bolt #2, would it help to tighten it?

Maybe. Maybe not. You have a torque wrench? If you're gonna muck with them, be sure to torque them up to the right torque. Easy to over-torque them.

Side to side play?

Ya know, the interwebs is not the best place to learn this stuff. Some kinds of play are inconsequential, and some kinds are consequential. Some indicate poor craftsmanship, which makes the whole thing suspect. Some may just be from the unevenness of the surface. Perhaps it reached the right torque before it was all the way tight-flush with the surface. Perhaps...

T

[Brian in SLC]

If a bolt has some side to side play, like bolt #2, would it help to tighten it?

Yep. Read the Powers installation guide. Snugging a loose powerbolt down isn't too hard. I'd recommend untightening the bolt until you can turn it with your fingers, then snug it down finger tight. Two or three full turns after finger tight will work.

If the bolt is loose, that is. If the bolt is tight but the hanger still wiggles, that'd be a different critter all together. Then I'd recommend loosening the bolt, tapping it down flush with a hammer, finger tight, then, 3 full turns past finger tight.

If you use a short, say. 4" long wrench, or, move your grip on a wrench up to that spot on a longer tool, you'd be hard pressed to overtorque a powerbolt without really leaning hard on it. IMHO.

Its hard to not have bolts get loose especially on some rock types, ie, like soft sandstone. A better option for softer rock in this area might be a larger diameter bolt (step up to 1/2") or a glue in (spendy, etc).

[Brian in SLC]

Some interesting info from a feller in Germany who appears to have his stuff pretty dialed below. They've done a bunch of testing on bolts, in situ, and, his conclusions are pretty interesting especially with regard to the type of bolt you're concerned about.

Good stuff on his website too:


http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm


[QUOTE]The installation torque on wedge or stud bolts (usually called `through bolts

[Sandstone Addiction]

You have a torque wrench? If you're gonna muck with them, be sure to torque them up to the right torque. Easy to over-torque them.

I looked up the torque specs on the link you provided and the max torque for 3/8 is 25 ft. lbs. and 1/2 is 45 ft. lbs.--that's not very much! Definitely see how these could get over torqued.

Thanks for your help Tom.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Good info Brian, thanks for your help.

[Brian in SLC]

I looked up the torque specs on the link you provided and the max torque for 3/8 is 25 ft. lbs. and 1/2 is 45 ft. lbs.--that's not very much! Definitely see how these could get over torqued.

With a short wrench, its pretty hard to get to that much torque. And, no one really carries a long handled tool outside. If you have access to a torque wrench, shift your grip to within 6 inches of the bolt and try it...

This is 25 foot-pounds. That's a bunch.

These are grade 5 bolts, which, have a much higher installation torque than stainless, which is less than half. Scary. You can tell by the headstamp on the bolt.

I know a number of folks who have checked bolt installations of other people by applying a torque wrench to a fairly freshly placed bolt, and, seeing how much torque is needed to finish the job. They are always amazed at how little torque most installed bolts have on them. That said, yeah, you'd hate to overtorque a bolt...but...with a short wrench, its nearly impossible.

Not to mention if you try to torque them down tight, what your knuckles will look like if the wrench slips off the bolt head...(I have gobs of scar tissue, you'd think I'd learn).

I use a short ratchet and socket. And wear gloves.

Having placed 100's of powerbolts (and 100's more stud type bolts), its amazing how many turns it takes to cinch these bolts down, and, how far they can draw up especially in soft rock. Powerbolts are kinda cool in that they have two ways they tighten in a hole, which makes them pretty good bolts for rock anchors. The sleeve over the cone is one, and, the cone itself expands. Double action. Makes even a poorly tightened one fairly reasonable and also makes them kinda field maintainable. Its the preferred bolt for rebolting that the ASCA does.

More good info here:

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm

[ewestesen]

I've rapped on those bolts a few times. Not sure if that's really helpful, but they held for me!