Pull Cord Management

[oahu_canyoneer]

OK, but not optimal.

The dynamic rope will introduce quite a bit of stretch in the system, and stretch makes doing the pull more difficult.

Hawaiian rock is noted to be quite rough, giving many opportunities for the rope to cut over an edge. By "cut" I mean get nicked in a way to produce a "core shot" (a cutting of the sheath fibers so that a window is opened up where you can see the core) rather than fully cut through = death which is also a possibility hopefully more remote. When you rappel on a dynamic rope, it tends to bounce, which means where it crosses the edge the rope moves up and down at the crossing point, which CAN produce a core-shot or worse. Bouncing can also be produced by not rigging your rappel for a smooth descent (which is often done on big & scary rappels).

ASIDE: one problem with the small-diameter pull-cord is that you WILL be pulling it over a sharp edge, and the smaller it is the more likely the pull cord is to cut through across that edge. Also, the stretchier it is, the more likely it is to cut. So if you used 600 feet of 3mm nylon accessory cord or 550 paracord to try to pull your rappel, I would estimate the chance of cutting the cord on the rock would be around 90%. /ASIDE.

Not all static ropes are all that static. Static ropes with nylon cores will be somewhat bouncy. Static ropes with polyester or dyneema cores will be "very static", and IMHO tend to work quite a bit better.

Also, your nylon dynamic rope will absorb more water than a polyester static rope would... but you guys are all young and strong so maybe that is not much of a problem...

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearg...ster-vs-nylon/

Tom

Thanks for the link. Yeah we're all still young so we should be able to handle the extra weight, as uncomfortable as it will be. Both drops force you to rappel directly through the waterfall and as such the sharp edges on the rocks have been muted somewhat, although abrasion will still be a concern. For all you that are sick of the red rocks you got over there, here's a pic of the falls (Sacred Falls) taken from a helicopter (the only other way to see them). The water flow isn't quite as heavy as it looks in the pic as long as you catch it on a day with good weather.

[ratagonia]

Totally awesome. Call me for the second descent!!!

[Slot Machine]

Totally awesome. Call me for the second descent!!!

x2

Wow, getting down THAT is a SERIOUS proposition. I didn't see anywhere on the thread that this is a first descent. Has that route been done? Is is bolted? If not, do you plan on bolting it? I ask because both of the big rappel anchors should be close to, or over the edge to allow for a less difficult rope pull.

OC, man, a lot of things can go soo wrong on big raps like that. I'm concerned about the 500 footer in particular. At the top of the rappel you will be force feeding 500 feet of wet 9mm rope through your rappel device. Your arms will probably wear out in a hurry since you will have just completed a 300 footer. Then you will have to adjust friction, with a worn out arm, with a waterfall pummeling you, 100-200 feet off the deck.

You might say, Bob, you're just being a wuss. Well, compared to my canyoneering partner, I am. He is 22 years old, climbs 5.12 and benches 300. We rapped of Egypt 2 recently (about 270 feet) and he didn't worry about adjusting friction saying, "man, my arm won't wear out". Well, about 80 feet off the deck his arm did wear out. He nearly lost control. It's a good thing I was belaying him from the top with a second rope. It could have gone very badly.

So, the point of my story is this- just having "good enough" technique/equipment might get you hurt or stranded out there. Consider shooting for "ideal".

Not being mean spirited at all OC, but it sounds like you need a little more experience before you try a monster like Sacred Falls. I'm only basing this suggestion on the paracord and dynamic rope questions. Those aren't questions a seasoned canyoneer would ask. (Not that I'm a seasoned canyoneer, I just play one on the internet.)

Anyway, it looks like an awesome adventure. I wish I could go with you guys. Be safe out there.

Bob

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Tom must have had a good weekend. He is taking it really easy on you.

[ratagonia]

Anyway, it looks like an awesome adventure. I wish I could go with you guys. Be safe out there.

Bob

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Tom must have had a good weekend. He is taking it really easy on you.

I considered this a good opportunity for my minions to show what they have learned...

Good job, Bob!

[oahu_canyoneer]

Not being mean spirited at all OC, but it sounds like you need a little more experience before you try a monster like Sacred Falls. I'm only basing this suggestion on the paracord and dynamic rope questions. Those aren't questions a seasoned canyoneer would ask. (Not that I'm a seasoned canyoneer, I just play one on the internet.)

Thanks for the concern Slot, no offense taken. I fully expected a reply like this was coming sooner or later. Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

We've been prepping, scouting, and training for this specific descent for about 2 months now. There has been a group that has done it, but there isn't much in terms of beta. We've done most of the route finding and scouting of the descent ourselves and are aware of the dangers. There are no bolts so it's all natural anchoring.

Everyone in the group knows how and has practiced adding/removing friction mid-rappel, as well as crisis management techniques (stuck rappel device, pulley systems, passing knots etc...).

Could we be more prepared? More experienced? Sure. But you could always be more experienced and learning new things. I'm confident in our ability to descend successfully and safely, and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for right?

[Mojave Silence]

I assume you have diligently scouted the 500' and 300' raps, any indication that you could turn the 500' into a multi-pitch? I personally wouldn't go into that canyon without a full bolt kit, (cordless rotary hammer drill w/ a bunch of extra batteries, not a manual hand drill), especially if its a first descent. A waterproof walkie-talkie for every member of the team is also a must-have. A drop that big can very quickly turn into a lot of trouble. Is everyone in your group experienced in ascending, self and group rescue, bomber anchor building etc. What's the plan if the first person gets 400' down the 500'er and is unresponsive? I've done some big raps out on Maui, in the 500-600' range, and it is definately not something to take lightly. A very experienced crew with a tight plan and the right gear will make a huge difference in the days success.

[Mojave Silence]

Oahu---I must have been typing my message when ya "snuck" yours in.
I'll leave it up none the less.

[Slot Machine]

Thanks for the concern Slot, no offense taken. I fully expected a reply like this was coming sooner or later. Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

... I'm confident in our ability to descend successfully and safely, and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for right?

Your approach seems solid, you are doing all of your research the right way. Confidence is no substitute for experience however; at least not in this case. Risk tolerance? Well, yeah we all have different levels of it. Risk assessment is what I'm talking about. How likely am I to be injured/die, not how well can a I cope emotionally with the dangers ahead. (again, not mean spirited)

Let's say I'm capable of lead-climbing a 5.10 route. I could scout a 5.12 route for weeks, get all the right equipment and ask all the right questions. If I tried to lead a 5.12 I would never succeed, and might get hurt trying. Sacred falls looks like a 5.12, that is, an X rated 4C. Out of concern, I'd strongly suggest working up to it.

The pull cord / dynamic rope questions are 5.7 level questions. As you move up you'll have even more questions, better questions. Like Mojave Silence's question. That is a 5.12 level question for sure.

Not that I know the answer to his question, I really don't have a clue.

[Mountaineer]

I'd strongly suggest working up to it.

I assume you have done > ~200' free (or semi-free) hang rappel before? The longer ones are a different experience, more technique, tough to pull rope through...

I'm glad my first couple weren't in cold flowing water.

[deagol]

Wow, a 500' rap sounds terrifying to me. I have done the one Slot Machine spoke of in Egypt II and was under the impression that it was about 245' ? I can't imagine doing double that. Also, it seems impossible to ascend up that rap like that (if you had to) with a waterfall hammering down on you?

This sounds epic by any description...

[Slot Machine]

Wow, a 500' rap sounds terrifying to me. I have done the one Slot Machine spoke of in Egypt II and was under the impression that it was about 245' ? I can't imagine doing double that. Also, it seems impossible to ascend up that rap like that (if you had to) with a waterfall hammering down on you?

This sounds epic by any description...

Well, we used a 320 foot rope and tied it to our truck, maybe 25 feet back from the drop. This was the amount of rope we had at the bottom-



This is maybe 25 ish feet? Dunno, didn't measure. I'm still confident that drop is at least 270 ft.

Also, Summitseeker posted this on candition.com "Some beta says the first rappel is 230 feet. Be warned this is a 278foot drop and a 300 foot rope or two shorter ropes with a knot pass are required to do the rappel."

Anyway, steering the conversation back toward Hawaii, the big Egypt drop is simple in comparison to a 500 foot waterfall with jagged rocks. Top belay was easy, the rock was smooth and dry, fireman belay was easy, communication was easy and we didn't have to pull the rope down.

Also, deployment of the rope was easy, we just chucked the first 50 feet off the cliff and let the rest uncoil from the top. There was no chance of the rope snagging on anything. One's rope deployment skills would have to be perfect for a waterfall that tall.

[oahu_canyoneer]

Also, deployment of the rope was easy, we just chucked the first 50 feet off the cliff and let the rest uncoil from the top. There was no chance of the rope snagging on anything. One's rope deployment skills would have to be perfect for a waterfall that tall.

I'm open to suggestions. My plan is to toss the first 100' or so off, and deploy the rest from the top. Both the 300' and 500' are near vertical so there isn't much in terms of ledges for them to sit on. The risk of getting snagged on jagged rocks is muted also because the fall line of the rappels goes directly through consistently-running waterfalls (algae-filled slippery rocks the whole way down.)

Once the first person is down we'll move the rap line aside and get the pull line down the same way.

As far as communication goes, we're bringing waterproof two-way radios with us.

[Slot Machine]

I'm open to suggestions. My plan is to toss the first 100' or so off, and deploy the rest from the top. Both the 300' and 500' are near vertical so there isn't much in terms of ledges for them to sit on. The risk of getting snagged on jagged rocks is muted also because the fall line of the rappels goes directly through consistently-running waterfalls (algae-filled slippery rocks the whole way down.)

Hmmm... sounds good on paper, but... it might not work in practice. A rope in a nearly vertical Hawaiian waterfall does not behave like a rope on dry vertical Utah sandstone. Because the rope is wet, it is more likely to stick to things. If there are any stone features protruding along the fall line, moss covered or otherwise, then there is a chance for a big tangle. When you throw the first 100 feet off then the rest will continue to feed smoothly from the top, simply because of the weight of the rope. It creates the illusion that the rope has arrived at the bottom. You might have a tangle 100 feet down, or a tangle 400 feet down. You won't know until the first man down is committed to the rappel. That tangle could prove deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Now, how to deploy a 600 ft rope in a waterfall is beyond the scope of my expertise. Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

[Aj84737]

Hmmm... Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

Tom does sell a 600 foot rope bag. It's called the kolob pack. Haha

[ratagonia]

Hmmm... sounds good on paper, but... it might not work in practice. A rope in a nearly vertical Hawaiian waterfall does not behave like a rope on dry vertical Utah sandstone. Because the rope is wet, it is more likely to stick to things. If there are any stone features protruding along the fall line, moss covered or otherwise, then there is a chance for a big tangle. When you throw the first 100 feet off then the rest will continue to feed smoothly from the top, simply because of the weight of the rope. It creates the illusion that the rope has arrived at the bottom. You might have a tangle 100 feet down, or a tangle 400 feet down. You won't know until the first man down is committed to the rappel. That tangle could prove deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Now, how to deploy a 600 ft rope in a waterfall is beyond the scope of my expertise. Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

For a 600 foot rope, I use a Heaps Pack, an old one, with no frame in it. Yes, I like how a rope bag deploys, but I also think Oahu-Canyoneer is on the right track.

One problem if you use a rope bag is, if you chuck it off it will deploy the rope nicely. But the bag may be swept by the current and over the next falls, and filled with water - therefore applying 50 lbs force at the bottom, an au natural bottom belay - very dangerous, you go first!

So I like a careful throw and feeding out of the rope.

On long raps, I do the caver thing, and have a handled ascender on a leash to my harness available, so if I need to stop and do something, I can do so quickly and conveniently. I assume each member of the descent team will have something similar.

A big advantage in Hawaii is that the water is not all that cold. Makes a big difference.

Tom

[deagol]

Not taking this thread back to the Egypt II direction, but coincidentaly, I did run into some tangles on that rap. As 1st one down (no bottom belay) it was my job to remove the tangles. I locked-off on my rap device above the tangle and un-did the tangle, and then continued down the rope to the bottom. It seems like this could work on a larger rap, but I'm curious as to why Tom used an ascender to do the same thing as a lock-off (I use a Totem where the lock-off is super easy to do). I'm sure there is a good reason and am curious to learn more...

Also, if the Rap in Egypt was 270', than I can see that being true. We had a 300' rope and anchored off that arch near the lip. There wasn't a huge amount of extra rope not used. Was just curious as to the real length with no pre-conceved idea of what length was the correct one. But still, rapping 500 ' would scare the ^&*$ out of me, I think.

[ratagonia]

Not taking this thread back to the Egypt II direction, but coincidentaly, I did run into some tangles on that rap. As 1st one down (no bottom belay) it was my job to remove the tangles. I locked-off on my rap device above the tangle and un-did the tangle, and then continued down the rope to the bottom. It seems like this could work on a larger rap, but I'm curious as to why Tom used an ascender to do the same thing as a lock-off (I use a Totem where the lock-off is super easy to do). I'm sure there is a good reason and am curious to learn more...

I too use a rappel device that is easy to lock off on, a Pirana.

But, on really long rappels, where the weight of the rope is significant, having the ability to stop and secure without having to lift the rope can be a good idea. The dangling handled ascender is something cavers do (I am told). In a caving situation (and on some canyoneering rappels) it may not be possible, or it may be dangerous, or it may be inconvenient to have to lift rope from below in order to secure-off.

It is of course better to set up the rope without tangles if possible.Throwing a bunch of rope out may or may not achieve this objective. Using a ropebag of some kind usually makes achieving this objective fairly easy, though not fool-proof. Carefully laying out the rope above then lowering is very reliable, if the geometry allows it to work.

Tom

[deagol]

I too use a rappel device that is easy to lock off on, a Pirana.

But, on really long rappels, where the weight of the rope is significant, having the ability to stop and secure without having to lift the rope can be a good idea. The dangling handled ascender is something cavers do (I am told). In a caving situation (and on some canyoneering rappels) it may not be possible, or it may be dangerous, or it may be inconvenient to have to lift rope from below in order to secure-off.

It is of course better to set up the rope without tangles if possible.Throwing a bunch of rope out may or may not achieve this objective. Using a ropebag of some kind usually makes achieving this objective fairly easy, though not fool-proof. Carefully laying out the rope above then lowering is very reliable, if the geometry allows it to work.

Tom

Thanks Tom, makes sense. Would be great to see a pic of exactly how the ascender is placed. On the brake strand, perhaps?

[ratagonia]

Thanks Tom, makes sense. Would be great to see a pic of exactly how the ascender is placed. On the brake strand, perhaps?

Nah, it is on a 24" tether, and you just clip it to the rope above the rappel device. With a handled ascender, this can easily be done with one hand.

Being clipped above the rappel device, one could then make adjustments to the rappel device, for instance.

Tom

[deagol]

Nah, it is on a 24" tether, and you just clip it to the rope above the rappel device. With a handled ascender, this can easily be done with one hand.

Being clipped above the rappel device, one could then make adjustments to the rappel device, for instance.

Tom

Is it an adjustable tether? Is that how you would release it when it's weighted? All ascenders I have used require you to be able to push them up the rope a tad in order to release them.