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Thread: Pull Cord Management

  1. #1

    Pull Cord Management

    Hey all, I've got a question I haven't seen addressed here yet. How do you manage your pull cord for large drops? Do you feed it out of a bag while rappelling?

    I'm planning a trip out here on the islands that includes both a 300ft and 500ft drop and am shuffling through ideas on the most efficient way to get the pull cord to the bottom. I'm going to be using 550 paracord for the pull line which is a pain to work with (not ideal, but all I have). My thought so far is to have the paracord on a spool, attach one end of the cord to a gear loop of the first rappeller, and unspool it from up above as they descend. It seems to me that is would be easier than having the rappeller deal with it and/or deal dealing with any kinks coming out of a rope bag. Thoughts? Anyone utilize a better method? Thanks.

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  3. #2
    Yeah that makes sense to me. Only problem would be that you would have to unwind everything. So it might be easier to just have your 1st person rapping unspool it as they go. That way you can keep the extra in the spool.

    One tip I would give though is to make sure you can actually pull the rope smooth before the last guy is down. That much pull string that far you might have some flexing issues or snags. And it's best to find that out while you still have a guy or two up top. Best bet is if you can pull 10 feet through, you're good IMO.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  4. #3
    Yeah thanks for the tip. Testing out the pull before the last person rappels could be a lifesaver.

    If the person rappelling has the spool, the question is how to rig it so that they can rappel while unspooling it easily? I guess I should try out some rigs. Also, is the EDK going to be fine for joining the pull line to our rappelling rope or is there another preferred way? Is it possible the pull line could pull through since there is such a difference in diameter between the two?

  5. #4
    a basic, tangle-resistant way to deploy pull cord, which works only when the terrain allows:

    get people down the drop, move rap rope well L or R of the fall line and hold it in position, anchor and toss pull cord in direction well away from rap rope. Allow rap rope to return to fall line, while keeping pull cord away from it.

    I would not ever plan to use 550 cord to pull a rope, however, esp. if I needed that rope to exit the canyon. A knotted, wet 550 cord is gonna hold probably less than 200 lbs when new, and be easily severed on sharp/abrasive rock. Way too risky for me. Also , I bet that stuff gets noodly as hell when wet - a handling nightmare in short lengths, much worse at 500'. Please consider carefully and test before you go. A decent pull cord isn't that much $$.

    Using the rap rope as a guideline and "zipping" the pull cord down it in a bag (suspended well below the guideline) might also work, but I haven't tried it on such a long drop. YMMV

  6. #5

    Re: Pull Cord Management

    I have my doubts that 550 para cord will be strong enough to retrieve a 500' rappel rope. It normally takes some really effort to get a long rappel rope to pull.

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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by oahu_canyoneering View Post
    Yeah thanks for the tip. Testing out the pull before the last person rappels could be a lifesaver.

    If the person rappelling has the spool, the question is how to rig it so that they can rappel while unspooling it easily? I guess I should try out some rigs. Also, is the EDK going to be fine for joining the pull line to our rappelling rope or is there another preferred way? Is it possible the pull line could pull through since there is such a difference in diameter between the two?
    The EDK might come undone if the pull line and the rappelling rope are not the same diameter. That's how the EDK got it's name. Since you are probably going to use a biner block at the top, just tie your pull cord to the blocking biner. Or maybe use a rethreaded figure 8.

    Also, Tom had a great suggestion on a recent thread, use a Petzl Oscillante pulley at the top of those two long drops instead of a rapid link. Yeah, you will have to leave em' behind, but I bet you will thank yourself when you are pulling down 500 feet of rope.

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  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Also, Tom had a great suggestion on a recent thread, use a Petzl Oscillante pulley at the top of those two long drops instead of a rapid link.http://www.trailspace.com/gear/petzl/oscillante/
    Or even simpler and safer, a Petzl Ultralegere on a 'biner or large rapid, which I've used once on a very long pull. I personally wouldn't like to rap off the oscillante, knowing its axle is the only thing between me and cratering. Unless there's some other setup method mentioned in his suggestion.

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  10. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I have my doubts that 550 para cord will be strong enough to retrieve a 500' rappel rope. It normally takes some really effort to get a long rappel rope to pull.

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    Especially a WET 500' rap line, which I'm assuming it will be if your doing this in Hawaii. Which island you doing this on? You should get ahold of "RenAtomic808" on this forum, he's a very capable canyoneer on Maui

  11. #9
    Thanks for the input guys. You've given me a lot to think about. I guess the general consensus is that it's not worth the risk of trying to use paracord for drops this big. I'm gonna see if I can round up some more ropes to join together to use as the pull line. There will be four of us so we'll have to just plan on each carrying a section of rope with us. The question is who gets to carry the 600 footer I have...

  12. #10
    If the 500' rappel is the last one and if you can access it from the bottom? I would stash my 600' and bring two 250's and rappel and lower the first guy down. Then pull the big rope up and use the two 250's for the pull side. Hauling 600' of rope would be miserable.

  13. #11
    Ugh. That sounds like an amazing idea moab mark but unfortunately there are still 3 waterfalls after the 500'. It's a series of 10 waterfalls and the 300 and 500 are smack dab in the middle of it all, sitting back to back, which is why I was originally trying to get by with paracord.

    We've made a few trips to the upper portion of the falls and eventually down until we hit the top of the 300', but once you go down that sucker you're committed. We've still got a couple weeks till our scheduled descent though, so I'm just working on ironing out all the wrinkles.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by oahu_canyoneering View Post
    It's a series of 10 waterfalls and the 300 and 500 are smack dab in the middle of it all, sitting back to back, which is why I was originally trying to get by with paracord.
    In my opinion, this is exactly why you don't want to try and get by with paracord. Use something stronger and less stretchy (ie, a real rope) in such a critical location to help ensure a successful retrieval. It seems canyoneers are already having a difficult time legally enjoying the beauty of Hawaii. Stranded canyoneers would generate bad press. Yeah, it'll be heavier, but the peace of mind will be worth it. I'm assuming that everyone in a group contemplating a first descent with those kinds of drops is gonna be strong and competent, so carrying a slightly heavier load shouldn't be that big a deal.

    Instead of paracord, I'd use a 300' rope and a 100' rope (8mm minimum, in my opinion). Use the 300' on the 300' rap and deploy your 600' that's stacked in a pack as the pull cord. That way if you get a core shot you won't jeopordize you're ability to get down the 500' rap. You can even place the bend of the two ropes on the rappelling side of the rapide for all but the last guy down so that you can creep the 300'er to save wear and tear (this also provides a contingency anchor if necessary). Don't use your 600' on the shorter upcanyon drops, either, so you know you'll have an intact rope for the big drop. I've never been to Hawaii, but if the canyons are like those on the other volcanic islands I've been to then I suspect the rock is not easy on ropes. Use your 600' rope on the 500' rap with the other two ropes tied together for the pull cord. I would creep the rope on this rappel, too, so no core shots develop for the last guy down. If the last guy down uses a biner block on this big rappel, remember that it's sometimes difficult getting the jammed up biner block to "unstick" itself from the rapide (which is another great reason to not use paracord).

    Have Fun!

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsr70 View Post
    Or even simpler and safer, a Petzl Ultralegere on a 'biner or large rapid, which I've used once on a very long pull. I personally wouldn't like to rap off the oscillante, knowing its axle is the only thing between me and cratering. Unless there's some other setup method mentioned in his suggestion.
    Mmmm. Not for me.

    The Oscillante is ONLY good for 15 kN (about 3500 lbs) - yougoddaproblemwiddat? (Me - I don't. I think 15Kn is plenty strong (works for my harness) and I have a great deal of trust in Petzl's QA systems.)

    I tried the Ultralegere for awhile, and found it seriously wanting. For it to work, the rope would need to stay on it - which seems highly unlikely. My experience was that even in the simplest cases, the rope would not stay on the pulley.

    Tom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by moabmatt View Post

    Instead of paracord, I'd use a 300' rope and a 100' rope (8mm minimum, in my opinion). Use the 300' on the 300' rap and deploy your 600' that's stacked in a pack as the pull cord. That way if you get a core shot you won't jeopordize you're ability to get down the 500' rap. You can even place the bend of the two ropes on the rappelling side of the rapide for all but the last guy down so that you can creep the 300'er to save wear and tear (this also provides a contingency anchor if necessary).
    I'm new to the saying "creep the rope." I'm assuming it means to adjust the anchor point on the rope so that the same portion isn't always on the lip of the drop? Luckily the 300' has a sloping lip so it shouldn't be much of a problem there. The 500' has more of a straight drop off so checking the abrasion will definitely have to be more of a concern.

    I can't say I'm an expert on contingency anchors. I've played around with using a munter as a contingency before but in general don't use them. Setting up a contingency for a 500' drop kinda gives me the heebie geebies but I guess it's because I like the feeling of being "tied off" (or on a biner block if I'm last). I guess you get used to it the more you use it though...

    The plan now is to use a 300' and 200' (one static one dynamic) as the pull line for the 500' drop and my 600' rope as the pull line for the 300' drop. I'm thinking about getting a smaller rope to use in place of the 200' for the pull line so that we still have the 200' as a backup in case all the ropes get caught up on the 500' while trying to pull it down.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by oahu_canyoneering View Post
    The plan now is to use a 300' and 200' (one static one dynamic) as the pull line for the 500' drop
    Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....

  18. #16
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maarten.1975 View Post
    Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....
    Completely Agree.

    Tom

  19. #17

    Re: Pull Cord Management

    I'm seeing a lot of very experianced canyoneers suggesting your planned use of paracord is a very bad idea. You would do well to heed their advice.

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  20. #18
    I have read the above threads and a lot of good advice has been given. However, the terrain and type of repel need to be taken into consideration. Is it free, over rocks, wet, around brush/trees, grooves in the rock where you pull, etc. Doing repels of that length are very dangerous. It would be good if all your party members have done long repels prior to this. You should also be very concerned with the repel technique you use. Many people underestimate the difficulty of long repels. Overheating and losing control of the repel is often a problem. It sounds like an awesome trip...be safe!

  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by maarten.1975 View Post
    Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....
    Sorry I should have been more specific. The dynamic rope I was talking about is a 10.2mm climbing rope. I can't imagine there would be any problems using this as I've used it for rappelling before, let alone just for a pull line. So just to be clear, we'll be bringing along these ropes:

    1) 9mm 600ft static rope used as rappel line for 500' and as pull cord for 300'

    2) 10.8mm static rope used as pull line for 500' and as rappel line for 300' as well as smaller drops

    3) 10.2mm dynamic climbing rope used as pull line for the 500'

    Should be fine right?

  22. #20
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oahu_canyoneering View Post
    Sorry I should have been more specific. The dynamic rope I was talking about is a 10.2mm climbing rope. I can't imagine there would be any problems using this as I've used it for rappelling before, let alone just for a pull line. So just to be clear, we'll be bringing along these ropes:

    1) 9mm 600ft static rope used as rappel line for 500' and as pull cord for 300'

    2) 10.8mm static rope used as pull line for 500' and as rappel line for 300' as well as smaller drops

    3) 10.2mm dynamic climbing rope used as pull line for the 500'

    Should be fine right?
    OK, but not optimal.

    The dynamic rope will introduce quite a bit of stretch in the system, and stretch makes doing the pull more difficult.

    Hawaiian rock is noted to be quite rough, giving many opportunities for the rope to cut over an edge. By "cut" I mean get nicked in a way to produce a "core shot" (a cutting of the sheath fibers so that a window is opened up where you can see the core) rather than fully cut through = death which is also a possibility hopefully more remote. When you rappel on a dynamic rope, it tends to bounce, which means where it crosses the edge the rope moves up and down at the crossing point, which CAN produce a core-shot or worse. Bouncing can also be produced by not rigging your rappel for a smooth descent (which is often done on big & scary rappels).

    ASIDE: one problem with the small-diameter pull-cord is that you WILL be pulling it over a sharp edge, and the smaller it is the more likely the pull cord is to cut through across that edge. Also, the stretchier it is, the more likely it is to cut. So if you used 600 feet of 3mm nylon accessory cord or 550 paracord to try to pull your rappel, I would estimate the chance of cutting the cord on the rock would be around 90%. /ASIDE.

    Not all static ropes are all that static. Static ropes with nylon cores will be somewhat bouncy. Static ropes with polyester or dyneema cores will be "very static", and IMHO tend to work quite a bit better.

    Also, your nylon dynamic rope will absorb more water than a polyester static rope would... but you guys are all young and strong so maybe that is not much of a problem...

    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearg...ster-vs-nylon/

    Tom

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