Keyhole Pinecreek

[jman]

Well this hasn't been confusing! Hehe

Shane: "the rules state..."

Tom: "the rules say..."

Shane: the rules "from the website say...":

Tom: "the actual rules..."

Tom: "the actual, technical rules say..."


What's next: "the actual, actual, for reals, rules are:".... Hehe

[ratagonia]

If there is one thing clear, it is that Tom's relationship to the rules is tighter than Shane's relationship to the rules.

T

[Iceaxe]

If there is one thing clear, it is that Tom's relationship to the rules is tighter than Shane's relationship to the rules.

Which brings us full circle to.... lappi ng canyons is not in the spirit of the permit.

I simply maintain that if it doesn't say you can't then it is legal....

While Tom appears to interpret every rule and canyon differently.

Just my two cent.

Sent using Tapatalk

[ratagonia]

Which brings us full circle to.... lapping canyons is not in the spirit of the permit.

I simply maintain that if it doesn't say you can't then it is legal....

While Tom appears to interpret every rule and canyon differently.

Just my two cents.

What do you mean, friend Shane?

I interpret every rule as it is written.

If they wanted to prohibit lapping canyons, they could. Let's not encourage them.

Perhaps you are referring to our previous spat about Russell Gulch and Das Boot, vs. the Subway. That is also written down, in the Backcountry Plan, as map showing the zones. My apologies for not digging it out, but it is there, if you wish to dig it out. My thoughts are that you would prefer to not know the rule, to maintain your level of plausible deniability.

Jus' sayin'...

Da rules is da rules.

Carry on.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Actually, turned out to be easy. It is on this page:

http://www.archive.canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/process.htm

So here is the map, clarifying the definition of the regular subway, which is in the Primitive Zone:

Enjoy.

Tom

[moab mark]

See that fine connector trail on that there map. The supposed leader who took me thru subway the first time got confused and we hiked the connector trail back to the road. The whole time he kept saying "this does look familiar but it sure seems like we should be gettting to the subway section soon" when we started seeing cars we then determined that he had blown it. After we hitched a ride back up to the start we then started all over again. The 9 12 year olds that were with us were dragging tail when it came time to hike up and out.

[Iceaxe]

So here is the map, clarifying the definition of the regular subway, which is in the Primitive Zone:

Nice map... but I don't see where it clarify's the difference between the Das Boot entrance or either of the Russel Gulch entrances to the Subway. In fact, I don't even see Das Boot labeled on the map (or Russel Gulch).

That the routes are in the primitive zone has never been in question... that a Subway permit identifies a particualr trail you must follow to enter or exit is.

You have a habit of interpitating the rules to match your sence of ethics, and then expecting everyone else to agree.... I just figure if it's not written anywhere I can't do it, then it must be OK. Which seem's like a much simplier approach... YMMV...

[ratagonia]

Nice map... but I don't see where it clarify's the difference between the Das Boot entrance or either of the Russel Gulch entrances to the Subway. In fact, I don't even see Das Boot labeled on the map (or Russel Gulch).[/COLOR]

That the routes are in the primitive zone has never been in question... that a Subway permit identifies a particualr trail you must follow to enter or exit is.

You have a habit of interpitating the rules to match your sence of ethics, and then expecting everyone else to agree.... I just figure if it's not written anywhere I can't do it, then it must be OK. Which seem's like a much simplier approach... YMMV...

Seriously?

As a master of snark once said:

"I can explain it to you, Shane; but I can't understand it for you."

Tom

[Bootboy]

This thread took a massive shit.

[Taylor]

Sorry but this is from the compendium, sec 1.5 (a)(2)(i):

"A permit allows a group to travel through the canyon one time. An additional permit is required for an additional trip."

Evidently lapping is not allowed.

[ratagonia]

Sorry but this is from the compendium, sec 1.5 (a)(2)(i):

"A permit allows a group to travel through the canyon one time. An additional permit is required for an additional trip."

Evidently lapping is not allowed.

There you go, guess I should read the entire compendium.

Tom

[mtn_dude]

Sorry but this is from the compendium, sec 1.5 (a)(2)(i):

"A permit allows a group to travel through the canyon one time. An additional permit is required for an additional trip."

Evidently lapping is not allowed.

dang i liked plausible denial...oh well