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Thread: Accident Report - Rigging Failure During a Rappel

  1. #41
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag23 View Post
    I remember now why the top orange carabiner isn't through the rapide - it was too big to go through any other links of chain, and I was worried that the rope might get squeezed between the biner and the rapide and make it impossible to adjust the anchor if the rope and biner where on the same one.

    I should have just added a second rapide, but it didn't occur to me.


    -Andre
    or use a different biner...


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  3. #42
    OMG, glad he is OK, very very lucky methinks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    For me.... thread the rope through the quick-link and done.... nothing faster, nothing simplier. Everything else is just inviting an accident.

    X100!!! It is one thing to KNOW contingencies, another to use as my standard OP. I gotta say, JUST LOOKING AT THE JESTER SETUP SCARES ME. I was taught when rapping to always check the whole anchor/rope setup, no matter who did it, b4 I commit. And that takes very little time if you have a simple bolts and rings/links, or bomber webbing & links anchor, and a rope thru the rings. If I saw the Jester, I would NOT rap until I knew 4sure that it was safe. And how in the HE-- can u tell??? And then, as they should, ever person in the group has to stop and doublecheck the Jester b4 they rap too???
    No thanks.

  4. #43
    I wonder if it is just at the first of the rap that it slips-- no tension/force to a lot? I use the Jester at places where I need to move a group through a rap more quickly. One is hooking up as one is rapping at the same time. I will test this out a bit more however. Very curious. Tom, I have used two biners, one on one side and the other on the opposite side of the totem. I don't know what that did to the system other than add one more piece of equipment. It is funny but I initially didn't trust the Jester either until I used it a bunch. It is not the go to set up. Rap and go or biner block is the go to set up for me. The jester has a purpose and I use it when needed.
    Life is Good

  5. #44
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    I wonder if it is just at the first of the rap that it slips-- no tension/force to a lot? I use the Jester at places where I need to move a group through a rap more quickly. One is hooking up as one is rapping at the same time. I will test this out a bit more however. Very curious. Tom, I have used two biners, one on one side and the other on the opposite side of the totem. I don't know what that did to the system other than add one more piece of equipment. It is funny but I initially didn't trust the Jester either until I used it a bunch. It is not the go to set up. Rap and go or biner block is the go to set up for me. The jester has a purpose and I use it when needed.
    I meant, use two biners in the same position, essentially a double-wide biner. The back/front biner thing does not change the equation.

    I'm not sure doing it plaquette style would then also allow it to be used to lower.

    ahem...

    I don't see how you can look at this and NOT be scared. There is no mechanism that 'locks' it.

    I think you can see that with a small rope, it would not lock at all. Say, 6mm pull cord. But with a big fat rope it would lock for sure - say, 12mm. So somewhere between, there is a point where it would slip under some load. Where is that point? What is the "some load"?

    I don't know where that point is. What I do know is that that point is in there somewhere, and I do not like systems like that.

    Also, since it is essentially a rappel device set up with high friction, it may work fine for normal rappelling, but when you get a 'big-boned' individual on it, or some bouncing around, it could start slipping. Since dynamic friction is lower than static friction, it is likely once it starts slipping that it would accelerate until a kink in the rope stops it from running (or the victim lands on a ledge).

    C'mon down sometime Scott, and I'll teach you the Stone Knot; and how to convert it to a lower. The Stone Knot LOCKS, is easy to tie, does not require another piece of gear, and works very well to achieve the same result...

    jus' sayin'...

    Tom

  6. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bo_Beck View Post
    Wow!? Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture here? Is the object to rappel on one side of the rope or other and not on both strands? The way I'm viewing it is that if it is meant to be rappelled on one side or the other without one side not being secured it is an accident waiting to happen? Unlike a belay being provided on an ATC Guide or Reverso 3/4 set up in the "autolock" mode (which still isn't fullproof), the "Jester" is relying on much less friction for a "lockoff"? What if the descent side is unweighted momentarily such as in bouncing or other factors? Does this allow the lesser friction to allow slippage of the rope at the anchor? Why would someone use this method instead of a simple "munter/mule"? Seems that this method is "gear intensive"? I guess that I'm far behind the times?
    I still stand behind and present my original question? A Fellow "C" and Canyon "H" still comes to mind when I see all this complexity! I'm with "Ice". Thread the rope and go! I'm gettin' cold standin' here!

  7. #46

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  9. #47
    What happens if you want to descend high-flow canyons, first Descents, x/r?
    What advantage would this have in a first descent or x/r? (Asking because I'm curious on the advantage, not because I'm arguing with this).

    Also, I think that many are using this example as an excuse to trash Carlson.
    So far, only the OP has mentioned Carlson. Who is trashing Carlson?

    But they are also overlooking that fact that there are about 5 mistakes in this piss-poor rigging job....and they are all mistakes that Carlson teaches prior to even demonstrating the Jester.
    It would be worthwhile discussion to point them out and discuss them.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  10. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I meant, use two biners in the same position, essentially a double-wide biner. The back/front biner thing does not change the equation.
    Yah, I didn't think it did. Thanks for the clarification.



    Also, since it is essentially a rappel device set up with high friction, it may work fine for normal rappelling, but when you get a 'big-boned' individual on it, or some bouncing around, it could start slipping. Since dynamic friction is lower than static friction, it is likely once it starts slipping that it would accelerate until a kink in the rope stops it from running (or the victim lands on a ledge).
    What you say makes sense, oh engineering one. Although as a big boned one, I have never had a problem, personally.

    C'mon down sometime Scott, and I'll teach you the Stone Knot; and how to convert it to a lower. The Stone Knot LOCKS, is easy to tie, does not require another piece of gear, and works very well to achieve the same result...

    jus' sayin'...
    I know how to do the Stone Knot but I am interested in the conversion. I may be an old dog, but I still want to learn new tricks.
    Life is Good

  11. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by BW123 View Post
    No offence to Ice, but he is hardly a model in Canyoneering technique.
    Let see..... I've been doing this for a really long time and never had even a minor injury in any of my groups. To me that sounds like a good model. YMMV

    I know all of the silly rope tricks and can use them if required, I'm just smart enough to know they are inviting disaster.

    But you guys are more than welcome to keep calling my techniques antique or simple while you keep injuring and killing each other.

    Sent using Tapatalk

  12. #50
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    I know how to do the Stone Knot but I am interested in the conversion. I may be an old dog, but I still want to learn new tricks.
    How's your conversion?

    In 200 days of guiding, I have had to do a lower 3 times. My preferred overall method is to use a Stone Knot, and have my conversion to a lower down pretty well. My current best time on the conversion is 2:15. Average time more like 3:00. Practice practice practice.

    In a real class C canyon, I'd go with a real contingency anchor, specifically munter mule. I object to carrying a separate piece of gear for a contingency anchor - it's just not my style.

    But, we all develop our own style. My style may be right FOR ME, but other people will make other choices.

    =====

    Overall, I find *something* shocking here. I am an engineer, and my style is to understand things. I worry when other people "appeal to authority". Just because Rich (or Spidey, or Jonathan, or Hank, or Bo, or ICE, or ME) present something, that does not mean it is "safe". Hank and I look at this and see a high-friction setting on a rappel device, which makes it inappropriate to use as an anchor, as it depends on various parameters to provide enough friction for it to not slip. I find it disturbing that other people don't see this...

    Tom

  13. #51
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    But you guys are more than welcome to keep calling my techniques antique or simple while you keep injuring and killing each other.
    We need your permission for that?

    But thanks anyway.

    Tom

  14. #52
    Tom, I "see this". I didn't believe the Jester would work until I tried it. I have since used it many times, successfully. I also didn't believe the sand trap, until I tried it. I wouldn't want to shock load that or bounce on it either but it works. I don't see the Jester as an inherently bad thing. I think it has a place and a time. I would like, however, to see other options too and then pick for the situation. I am interested in the stone conversion process. If it requires prayer, I am there.
    Life is Good

  15. #53

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  17. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by BW123 View Post
    I do agree to a point that it's 'just rappelling'; however, this simplification might also be blamed for several fatalities each year, ie, Kolob, Choprock, etc. What happens if you want to descend high-flow canyons, first Descents, x/r? Tell me what is wrong with learning a little more! Everything is situational and I think it's short-sighted to minimize the sport as 'just rappelling'. BW
    My question/statement stands: Why the semi-complex "Jester Rigging" is taught at all if it has flaws?! The Munter hitch has been used for hundreds of years and may not be the most efficient method of lowering, but is proven to work, has minimal resource needs, is simple to rig and doesn't require special tools! I'm pretty certain that the photo of the rigging that was presented is actually taken prior to the accident and I didn't see the high flow? Maybe I'm missing something?

    Quote Originally Posted by BW123 View Post
    Also, I think that many are using this example as an excuse to trash Carlson. But they are also overlooking that fact that there are about 5 mistakes in this piss-poor rigging job....and they are all mistakes that Carlson teaches prior to even demonstrating the Jester. You can't teach experience or common sense and you can only tell people not to exceed their knowledge based-abilities!BW
    Again......WTH! Why would you even suggest a technique that has 5? possible flaws possible to begin with? Please show the correct way the rigging should be executed BW! So far I've heard many chime in with comments that range from "It works for me" and "I've had it slip on me"? So now are we using a system that has percentages of successful use?

    Bo

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  19. #56

  20. #57
    Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ...

    https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCan...ingAssociation

    Feel free to copy any of the Jester rigging photos from the Facebook page and paste them here to continue your discussion.

    Carry on.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  21. #58
    What advantage would this have in a first descent or x/r? (Asking because I'm curious on the advantage, not because I'm arguing with this).
    - My point was to increase your knowledge-base in general. I don't mean to elude that this actual technique would be useful in any of those situations.

    OK, then what safety advantages does it have in a different situation? Which situation would this present a safety advantage? I’m asking because I am curious on the advantage.

    So far, only the OP has mentioned Carlson. Who is trashing Carlson?
    - Many familiar with Carlson's history and interactions with individuals on this forum might find this question naive.

    [FONT=Verdana]
    When it comes to Carlson’s history/interactions, you are correct that I’m pretty na
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  22. #59
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ...

    https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCan...ingAssociation

    Feel free to copy any of the Jester rigging photos from the Facebook page and paste them here to continue your discussion.

    Carry on.
    Here are the pictures RC is talking about:
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  23. #60
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ...

    https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCan...ingAssociation

    Feel free to copy any of the Jester rigging photos from the Facebook page and paste them here to continue your discussion.

    Carry on.

    Nice ropes in that first picture. The munter on the lowest biner is ... unrelated, right?

    "Forgive me if I spoil anyone's fun by providing accurate information ..."

    Thanks for the pictures Rich. Seems unlikely that you waded through the thread, since your additional information does not really provide any new information, and it is unclear that any of the information in this thread was inaccurate. There are a variety of opinions expressed, but there seems to be no 'information' that is not consistent across the various opinions.

    Tom

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