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Thread: Accident Report - Rigging Failure During a Rappel

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    I apologize for making that assumption about you. Before I posted that, we didn't know you had a class for the totem.
    For years I used a figure-8 knot with a safety like I saw on some forum or something.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ag23 View Post
    What sized ropes have you used? And have you tried shocking it?

    I've used it a lot too, but after the accident I re-rigged it at the campsite and was able to make it fail consistently on that new Canyon Fire by standing on my tiptoes with a few inches of slack between me and the jester and sitting down hard.

    -Andre
    I have used the exact same rope as you and other similar diameter ropes. I didn't have the rappeller shock load per se but had them bounce mid rap after they had locked off. Again, the rope didn't budge. Maybe there is a flaw in the system at the beginning of the rap when the rope is slack??? New slick rope? My experience is that once the rope is weighted, it stays put. Hmmm. may have to go back to the double biner block.
    Life is Good

  4. #23
    Wow, I'm really glad that he only sustained a fractured ankle. Also, thanks Andre for sharing so we all can learn.

    I'm amazed that the rope slipped. If it normally doesn't slip, then I'm also amazed that it is releasable. I'm even MORE amazed that this is anyone's go-to rigging.

    There is nothing wrong with the Canyon Fire rope. Yeah it is a little slick when new, but that is really obvious when you pull it out of the bag. The rigging method here is the REAL issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I'm still confused as to why people take something as simple as rappelling and make it so complicated?
    x3

    Where is my soap box? Oh there it is, up we go.

    Einstein once said "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". This quote comes to mind every time I check out the ACA website because many of the anchors and device setups seem as complex as possible. Seriously, when you log into the website you will see the homepage photo is a cluster of guys in a waterfall doing something more complicated than I have ever seen or will ever do.

    I'm self taught, but take serious consideration to every method that I come across. If I were the only canyoneer in the universe, I would never rig something so excessively complex as the Jester. Not because of lack of ingenuity, but because intuitively the margin of error is increased significantly. Humans make errors, especially with complex routine problem solving. People get distracted, people get bored, people miss details. Add an exponent to the equation when tired, cold, hungry etc.

    Why do groups rig contingencies on a routine basis? We've had a shirt stuck in a device once, we've had hair stuck in a device once. No biggie, didn't need to lower those gals, we worked it out, and we won't let it happen again.

    I could ask the same about routine biner blocks. Uh yeah, people clip into the wrong side of those...

    Toss and go, ATC, make sure your rope is even and on the ground, fireman belay. Haven't heard a lot of problems with that set up lately. If everyone abandons the Jester I bet we don't see any more Jester related accident reports.

    It's sad to see people get hurt because they haven't considered that the simplest way is often the safest way.

    Keep it simple. Have fun. Be safe.

    Bob

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ag23 View Post
    You're correct, it is really fast to unclip it and rap double stranded.

    The difference is that as a block the second pass through the Totem adds fraction to what is effectively the break strand. It is the difference between using an ATC double stranded and having two ATCs rigged in series on a single strand.

    Good note about the link.

    -Andre
    Gotcha gotcha, makes sense.... Kudos btw for the accident report and shot of what the rigging looked like before the accident. Very cool learning experience!

    One more thought.... Maybe tossing the rope bag down would add just enough pull to keep the other rope tight? Maybe having the rope bag right there with zero downward force on the opposing (not used) line was a factor in the whole equation? I wish I had one of those and could maybe do some test on it. Shucks!
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  6. #25
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    I have 2 brand new totems I'll sell--$30ea.


    I'll be in St. George tomorrow.

    Selling cheap, because I just found out there dangerous.

  7. #26
    $30? You must not consider them too dangerous.
    Life is Good

  8. #27
    I guess I'm confused about the rigging. Looks like a Kong Gi Gi plaquette type rigging (only not in autolock mode, but, like a sticht plate), so...what the heck keeps it from slipping? Just the mere friction of it passing around?

    The rope is not locked off (tied off, blocked) at all?

    Not getting all this complicated rigging stuff either. The device has a ton of options, which, makes it kinda cool, but, with all those options comes complicated rigging that can be easy to screw up.

    I guess I prefer the figure eight for contingency...and those small Rock Exotica eights are sweet!

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    X2, w/o "probably"
    X3 most def without the probably. Its "Minnesota clipped" to the anchor chain. One of the bolts fail, bye bye. A known killer.

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Why do groups rig contingencies on a routine basis?
    I don't why others do, but I do it now and then in dry canyons to keep in practice for when it is needed in a whitewater environment (where single strand can be useful and toss and go, hazardous). But...Munter Mule all the way for me, baby. No Jokers, Jesters, or such like.

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  12. #30
    Just played with this a touch at home...rigged off whatever that device was that preceeded the Totem, and, an ATS. Same rigging. 8mm rope. I couldn't get it to NOT slip.

    Are folks really relying on rope diameter and friction for this trick to work? Scary.

  13. #31
    I gotta go out and mess with the Jester some more. The last thing I want is a sketchy set up. This accident report certainly has me thinking.....

    And in case I wasn't clear, the Jester is very easy to rig and to me is not complex at all.
    Life is Good

  14. #32
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    what advantage does the jester have over the joker? both isolate the strands & both are releasable. what advantage as single strand over a normal contingency?

  15. #33
    For me the Jester is easier, faster and uses less stuff than the Joker. Two biners and a totem-- done.
    Life is Good

  16. #34
    For me.... thread the rope through the quick-link and done.... nothing faster, nothing simplier.

    Everything else is just inviting an accident.


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  18. #35
    I'd have to agree with ice here. No sense in adding in more pieces then need be. The more stuff added the more chances of failure there are.

  19. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    X3 most def without the probably. Its "Minnesota clipped" to the anchor chain. One of the bolts fail, bye bye. A known killer.

    I remember now why the top orange carabiner isn't through the rapide - it was too big to go through any other links of chain, and I was worried that the rope might get squeezed between the biner and the rapide and make it impossible to adjust the anchor if the rope and biner where on the same one.

    I should have just added a second rapide, but it didn't occur to me.


    -Andre

  20. #37


    I did a quick video from the back alley. I'm just putting a just little slack in the line (as if leaning forward to unclip a tether) and then kind of leaning back hard. I can easily pull a foot or more through the rigging. Not exactly a scientific test, but this is failing with only a couple hundred pounds of force.

    I should note again this is an almost brand new rope and is very slick. I can't make it fail on my older canyon fires that have a few seasons of use, but then I haven't tried especially hard.

    -Andre

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  22. #38
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Andre
    Did you consult the developer of the jester system with your problem?
    If so, what was the developers consensus?

  23. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Andre
    Did you consult the developer of the jester system with your problem?
    If so, what was the developers consensus?
    I did email Rich a week or two ago with the accident report and asked for his thoughts, but I haven't heard back from him.

    -Andre

  24. #40
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag23 View Post


    I did a quick video from the back alley. I'm just putting a just little slack in the line (as if leaning forward to unclip a tether) and then kind of leaning back hard. I can easily pull a foot or more through the rigging. Not exactly a scientific test, but this is failing with only a couple hundred pounds of force.

    I should note again this is an almost brand new rope and is very slick. I can't make it fail on my older canyon fires that have a few seasons of use, but then I haven't tried especially hard.

    -Andre
    and... there are other ropes that are smaller.

    Can you just plaquette the rope through the slots? (Yes, I tried this, no problem).

    Or use two carabiners.

    Tom

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