NRS Paragon

[Bootboy]

Anyone used this pack? It looks like what I've had in my head for a while but have been unable to find until now. Looks brilliant for wet canyons where weight and low bulk are a priority.
I already own an assortment of dry-bags and this would allow me to only take as big of a bag as I need for the given trip. You can also keep your rope outside either in a ropebag or coiled. I may get one and see how it works out.

Thoughts?
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/nrs/paragon-pack/

[CarpeyBiggs]

the problem is you wear holes in the drybag easily since it is entirely unprotected.

people use it for packrafting sometimes too, doesn't make much sense in the slots.

[Bootboy]

Yeah but dry bags are cheap. Packs are not.

I just hate the ordeal of storing a dry bag in my pack . It's extra weight, wasted space, and wasted time having to open 2 bags just to get something out of your pack.

How does everyone else do it?

I can't help but think that there is a better way.

[Renatomic808]

Same sized double dry bags maybe? That way you don't have to take the other one out.. just roll it while its in the other bag. Other bag for the most part protects the inner bag? seems like something i'd like to try. May or may not work, and may or may not be cheaper.

[Bootboy]

I just don't see the sense in wearing out a $150 pack to "protect" a $30 dry bag. A good urethane dry bag can handle plenty of abuse. I would even consider sewing a cordura sleeve to hold the drybag.

I ordered one. I do enough river running that if it doesn't work out for canyons I still have use for it.

[CarpeyBiggs]

because most of us aren't protecting the dry bag, we are protecting the contents of the dry bag. i can't afford to have a failed drybag in a canyon. i need a system i trust.

the other problem with those paragons is that in a slot, you will likely wear out the straps that hold the drybag in place. it's not that burly. many complain about the suspension system too... ULA makes a cool pack that has a similar design with much improved suspension. packrafters love it. http://www.ula-equipment.com/epic.asp

most of us aren't using burly river drybags. we are using POE bags, or something similar. the thick hypalon style drybags are a pain in the ass, in every way...

that said, i do a lot of canyons in the course of a year, averaging between 60-80 the last 5 years. I've purchased exactly 3 packs in that time. 1 Heaps, and 1 Spry, and 1 leprechaun. The lep died after some solid work in the skinnies. The other two are going strong. I have trashed a handful of other "bargain" packs when I've tried to cut weight on big trips. They rarely last more than 2-3 trips, and the abrasion from a slot has worn through a couple of drybags when there is only thin ripstop between the walls of the drybag and the canyon.

The reason many of us use Imlay packs is because they work, and they last forever. They aren't the ideal pack for everything, but they are the best option for most canyons I do. Yes, getting into and out of drybags is somewhat cumbersome, but there are plenty of other options - i.e. aloksaks, kegs, hermetically sealed bags that ortlieb makes, etc... Not sure why you are into and out of your drybag so often, but for me, I'm only in the drybag for the essentials, the stuff I can't afford to get wet. That usually happens at most once or twice in the course of an entire day.

The peace of mind is worth it... ymmv.

[Bootboy]

The ULA is $275 if you can even find one.

I use urethane drybags for my river needs. They are super tough and not that big of a PITA.

Right now, I have an old 30L Lowe alpine pack that is 10 years old and has been absolutely thrashed but still goes strong. I recently coated the bottom in a similar product to this .
clear urethane based sealant. It works great and will prolong the life of your imlay packs. I'm handy with a stitching awl and may likely end up making some mods to the NRS as I see fit.

[CarpeyBiggs]

what do you mean? ULA packs are easy to get... they are based out of logan. ULA would not be a good choice for slots though, as they are built to lightweight specs. they'd get hammered in slots. i do carry one occasionally in the grand canyon though, when the slots are not as physically punishing.

i think you missed my point though. imlay packs are pretty well bombproof. their fit isn't always perfect, but durability? what are they, 1000 denier cordura or something? i have no idea, but they are burly, and as durable as any pack around. slopping them up with urethane probably won't help much, i've yet to see one fail at the seams or in the fabric. biggest problem for me has been the buckle wearing out. 5 years, a couple hundred canyons, without replacing anything. i'd say that's pretty good ROI. if anything, tom needs to make them LESS burly, and lighter weight, he'd probably sell more... have you had a different experience?

but, i don't think that's what you are asking. you said "there has to be a better system," lighter weight, and more simple. i've been pressuring tom for awhile to make a lighter pack for expedition canyoneering, and one with even more room than a Heaps, at the expense of durability. so far he hasn't signed up for it.

so if you've got an idea you are confident will work, i'm anxious to hear it.

but if you are wondering if the paragon could be it? my guess is it isn't. it has significant limitations as i mentioned (suspension being the biggest complaint i've seen.) it just doesn't carry well, nor would i expect it to last very long, and i'm doubtful a dry bag, even a hypalon or urethane one, can handle much abuse in most slots (but i guess this depends on what slots you are doing...) if you are going to cover the drybag in cordura anyways for the paragon, seems like you haven't simplified the system at all. however, if you are talking about just having a 30L pack and drybag, that's a fairly small load, and one that probably won't be too negatively impacted by a poor suspension. 50 or 60L, and I imagine you would not be too stoked if it didn't carry well.

curious though, how would you carry your rope go on that paragon? would you put everything inside the main drybag? seems like using the paragon would make it so i have to open my drybag MORE often, and it would be more complicated than using standard packs with lightweight drybags. where do you keep your water on it, camelbak? i hate camelbaks in canyons, btw... what about a lid system for snacks and consumables? are you worried about the zippers on the hip pockets? those are sure to die a quick death. helmet? gloves? webbing during the descent, where do you carry that kind of stuff? i tend to keep my rapides, extra biners, and knife on a gear loop inside my pack, as i don't like them on my harness when downclimbing or hiking. couldn't do that with the paragon, i don't think. i always am in and out of my pack in the course of a day, but rarely in my drybags. worst of all, i wouldn't be able to carry my camera in a pack like that. where would i put it? it'd be way too time consuming always rolling and unrolling it the main compartment.

maybe i'm coming at this from the wrong angle. what exactly is in your drybag? how often are you in and out of your drybag in a day? are you packing your gear in the drybag the entire trip, or just when you get to water? what about your current system is complicated? and why would one roll top dry bag carried by a harness suspension system simplify things? seems like you still have to take the pack off your back and unroll the drybag lid. if weight and bulk are a priority, using a durable river-style drybag seems kind of the opposite of that. river dry bags are heavy and cumbersome. what does a 30liter hypalon or urethane drybag weigh? couple pounds? might have to pull one out tomorrow and weigh it. seems like it's pretty heavy though, and trying to pack them well is always a pain. that's why i prefer the lighter weight dry bags.

however, sounds like you are confident the paragon will get some use. all i can relate to you from people who have used it is that they were very lukewarm about it. it's an interesting idea, but i'm not sure it has very broad application, especially for navajo sandstone canyoneering... but i haven't personally used one yet. so try it out, and i'm curious to see what you think.

[Bootboy]

I didn't realize they were based out of logan, I just wasn't able to find any retailers. It would only be a small dry bag that I would carry and I would simply strap my rope on top with the existing strap. I understand your point about things getting complicated, having to open and unopened it all the time but the truth is, I don't get in my pack all that often, so for me, it's not a big deal. I don't see the hip pockets wearing out that quickly, unless they are shoddy.
My urethane dry bags weigh less than 3lbs for a 20-40 liter bag

The idea is this: Keep your dry stuff dry and your rope accessible. I carry pretty minimal hardware and have no issue keeping it on my harness. The coating on put on my pack has breathed new life into it. Really something worth considering.

Just curious, what good does your knife do you in your pack? I keep mine on my pack strap below my chest on my left side where I can get to quickly. River habit I guess.

I'm not sold on the idea of the paragon either but I'd like to try it and see how it works out. I'm not advocating this set up. Just looking to experiment and find the strengths and weaknesses of such a system. This system may be kind if a niche as well, I can see it being sweet for slots like keyhole and the black hole. I don't have all the answers but someday I will have the ultimate pack, this may well just be a venture that I can glean insight from in my quest. I don't really have any issues with my current setup. I just want to explore other options.

[nelsonccc]

I just use cheap REI packs. I go to the REI garage sales and get whatever is on sale. My last pack is still going strong 4-5 years later and I only paid $40 for it and I still have another in the que that I paid $20 for. Granted I currently only do 10-12 canyons a year if that, but back in the heyday that pack was seeing 2 trips a month to Zion. So while Tom's packs are really good and have a stellar reputation (well deserved) they are quite expensive. I also think it varies a lot depending on what canyons you do, Zion canyons are mild and not hard on packs.

[MrAdam]

I have been using an 40L REI Pinnacle that I got on sale for about $40 last year. I put grommets in the bottom and use a dry bag or keg depending on the canyon. The pack has been thru around 35 or so canyons in the last year and is still going strong, although the AZ canyons arent quite as tough on packs as the Utah canyons. It has plenty of little tears and holes in it, but most of those are from the evil vegetation out here instead of abrasion. A pack works great as a shield when pushing thru catclaw!!

[Bootboy]

It's here and I'm pleased with how it packs. I use a dry bag for the dry stuff and the set my ripe bag on top and strap it all down. I going to get a small dry bag to clip on top to carry things like a headlamp and snacks

[Bootboy]

I may end up a adding an additional full-length aluminum stay for extra stiffness, but for now it's time to thrash it through the paces.

[ratagonia]

I didn't realize they were based out of logan, I just wasn't able to find any retailers. ...I don't have all the answers but someday I will have the ultimate pack, this may well just be a venture that I can glean insight from in my quest. I don't really have any issues with my current setup. I just want to explore other options.

What year is this?

http://ula-equipment.com/

ULA is not a dealership-based brand. There gear is highly-specialized long-distance hiking stuff, and they mostly sell direct. Via the Interwebs.

Good on ya looking at other options. Now that you have tossed out a few ideas, and gotten a few responses, a good place to work next is IN CANYONS. Nothing like actually doing canyons to find out what works and what doesn't.

Tom

[Bootboy]

A little field testing is in the planning stages ;)

[Bootboy]

I hope to get down and do either right fork or subway in the next few weeks and try this system.

[Scott Card]

because most of us aren't protecting the dry bag, we are protecting the contents of the dry bag. i can't afford to have a failed drybag in a canyon. i need a system i trust.

.........


The peace of mind is worth it... ymmv.

This.

[oldno7]

This.

All-right, we all know Dan protects camera gear--What on earth are you protecting--legal documents??

[Scott Card]

Lunch

[Bootboy]

I used this setup in kolob creek a few weeks ago and it worked brilliantly. After the 10 hour day, the suspension on the pack was fine, my hips were sore but they always are after wearing a pack for that long. My intention was never to use it for skinnies. But in a slot like kolob, big and wet, it's a nice setup. The paragon fits my small frame well (5'8", 150lbs). You have to load it right but it's easy to figure out. I'm going back to kolob next week and I will use this setup again. My dry bag shows zero wear, kolob isn't a squeezy canyon. I'll run it through imlay and see how it fairs. I think I'll carry an extra dray bag, just in case. It's not perfect but it's done what I've asked it to do very well.